Topic: So many GM brands.....

[gmgod]

Gm has all these beautiful cars. Clearly dominating any catagory they choose.

LMFAO

Considering what you drive  , I wouldn't laugh too hard.

  what do drive? Tonka?

It would be kind of hard to fit in a Tonka , don't you think?

[toolatecrew]

GM should be able to discontinue Buick in NA in the next few years. The average age of car buyers in general in the us rose from 42 to 48 years old last year. Buick's average buyer age was 55. I've yet to see a Buick product trageted towards a younger market or even towards the markets that young people typically buy in (compact etc) therfore  Buick buyers truly are a "dying" breed.

By all means keep the Buick NAME in China. Sticking a namplate on a car that says Buick isn't the same as supporting a different BRAND with all the overhead in NA.

What would make sense would be to emiminate Buick and introduce one or 2 models (or even decontent an existing model or 2) to the Cadillac line to capture that Buick market. I'm only guessing but I have always thought that these 50 something Buick buyers ASPIRED to a Cadillac. I doubt a Buick buyer would ays "Oh I'd never own a Caddy they are trash". If a Buick buyer were to switch where would they go? Top of the line Chevy Impala? Fine sales saty within GM. Maybe Lincon on Chyrsler (although 300 is not nearly conservative enough IMO for Buick market). I've had several Buicks as rentals and I can say that despite the decent build quality there is no way that these products will entice me at 40 to ever look at Buick. It drives like an impala. Its still a throwback in terms of feel and design. I'm not saying it can't be a reliable large car but as that 55 plus market ages you aren't going to switch the current buyers into Buick as they age.

It probaly makes too much sense to actually happen.

Pontiac is the other one that needs to go. Other manufacturers often have a basline brand and an upscale luxury/sporty division. Pontiac is neither. Its suposed to be the "sporty" division but what Brand is GMs highest performing car? Chev (the Corvette) Pontiac doesn't even have a unique model the Solistice is shared with Saturn. All the other pontiacts are just Badge engineering really. Maybe the G8 is an exception have to wait and see.

[zapplez]

I am going to have to disagree with you toolatecrew.

I am very biased, considering I just bought a 07 Buick (and I am 20 years old ).
For people who are large and like a car with a lot of storage space, room, and a more powerful engine than most an I4, Buick is a smart choice. It comes with a 80k/160k powertrain warranty, and is #1 for reliablity (tied with Lexus).

Buick is still a respected name in the eyes of many, and entry-level luxury is still an important market for GM to operate in.

Pontiac in Canada is a strong competitor still. The solistice and the sky have dramatically different looks so they should compete against each other. The G8 (and the GTO) were exciting Holden designs. Many shoppers want the slightly different tuned Pontiac style.

I see a steady market for both brands for years to come.

[Mitlov]

i organized them based on their hwy mileage.  i did put the focus and the malibu on the list but most of the cars are japanese or korean.  they out number the american cars substantially.  these are the cars people buy.  the gm cobalt might have the mileage but it's just plain ugly.  actually i was quite impressed that the malibu was up there and i think it is selling well, so like i said good on them.   american companies produce big trucks and suvs because the american people love them.  for the rest of the world they are basically useless.   so how does gm think they are going to save themselves when they have the accord, camry, altima, tsx, jetta, and mazda 6 ahead of them?  also, people in the rest of the world drive manual transmissions.   even in canada, there is a big population who drive manuals.   again gm fails miserably.  

caddy has made improvements but it doesn't touch lexus, bmw, audi or merc.   i have driven cars made by all these companies and the caddy looks and feels cheap inside.   i like manual transmissions.  a caddy manual?  hahah when i drove the cts i thought the steering was terrible, overpowered and distant feeling.  like 95 percent of the american cars i have driven.  i guess merc can get away with producing average consumer reports because they are merc.   all the fat rich people absolutely love them and will drive them because it is the ultimate status symbol. don't get me wrong, caddy has made big improvements but they seem to be falling between the cracks right now.  no manuals, subpar interiors, no awd and most of all the caddy appears cheap.

No manuals?  Ford Focus, Ford Fusion, Chevy Cobalt, Saturn Astra, Cadillac CTS all offer manuals.  Plenty more domestics do as well.  The Jeep Patriot offers a manual transmission, whereas neither the Honda CR-V nor the Toyota RAV4 nor the Nissan Rogue do, for example.

Mercedes-Benz is "average" in Consumer Reports reliability ratings.  They wish.  Most models are rated "far below average." 

No AWD, no manual, and a cheap interior in a Cadillac?  You clearly are not familiar with the second-generation CTS (2008), which does offer optional AWD, and does have a manual transmission available, and has an interior that competes with any other car in the segment.

Overall, you are continually changing the parameters of the conversation to try to justify your national stereotypes in a global marketplace where those stereotypes just don't hold true or make sense.  Traditional stereotypes about "what a German car is like," "what a Japanese car is like," and "what an American car is like" just don't offer reliable insight nowadays.  I give up trying to convince you otherwise, though.

[weebl]

What was this thread about, again?

[toolatecrew]

I am going to have to disagree with you toolatecrew.

I am very biased, considering I just bought a 07 Buick (and I am 20 years old ).
For people who are large and like a car with a lot of storage space, room, and a more powerful engine than most an I4, Buick is a smart choice. It comes with a 80k/160k powertrain warranty, and is #1 for reliablity (tied with Lexus).

Buick is still a respected name in the eyes of many, and entry-level luxury is still an important market for GM to operate in.

Pontiac in Canada is a strong competitor still. The solistice and the sky have dramatically different looks so they should compete against each other. The G8 (and the GTO) were exciting Holden designs. Many shoppers want the slightly different tuned Pontiac style.

I see a steady market for both brands for years to come.

I'm glad you are happy with your new car purchase. However you are in by far the minority. the number of new Buicks sold to people under 30 (let alone under 25) is microscopic. I'd be very curious to hear your story , why you bought the buick and what cars you cross shopped.

07 Buick? What Model?Was it a "left over" 2007 becuase we are in 2008 model year with 2009 just around the corner.

[zapplez]

I am going to have to disagree with you toolatecrew.

I am very biased, considering I just bought a 07 Buick (and I am 20 years old ).
For people who are large and like a car with a lot of storage space, room, and a more powerful engine than most an I4, Buick is a smart choice. It comes with a 80k/160k powertrain warranty, and is #1 for reliablity (tied with Lexus).

Buick is still a respected name in the eyes of many, and entry-level luxury is still an important market for GM to operate in.

Pontiac in Canada is a strong competitor still. The solistice and the sky have dramatically different looks so they should compete against each other. The G8 (and the GTO) were exciting Holden designs. Many shoppers want the slightly different tuned Pontiac style.

I see a steady market for both brands for years to come.

I'm glad you are happy with your new car purchase. However you are in by far the minority. the number of new Buicks sold to people under 30 (let alone under 25) is microscopic. I'd be very curious to hear your story , why you bought the buick and what cars you cross shopped.

07 Buick? What Model?Was it a "left over" 2007 becuase we are in 2008 model year with 2009 just around the corner.

I've been researching cars since probally 2007. Ive looked up reviews and reports on everything from 90s BMWs to 08 Civics. After test drives on a few cars, I decided comfort,performance, reliabilty and style were there in spades with the Buick Allure.

I bought my car with 30,000 km for 15,000. The MSRP of the car new was over 27,000. To me I'm getting much more car than comparble models in my price range.

[The Mighty Duck]

You clearly are not familiar with the second-generation CTS (2008), which does offer optional AWD, and does have a manual transmission available, and has an interior that competes with any other car in the segment.

Overall, you are continually changing the parameters of the conversation to try to justify your national stereotypes in a global marketplace where those stereotypes just don't hold true or make sense.  Traditional stereotypes about "what a German car is like," "what a Japanese car is like," and "what an American car is like" just don't offer reliable insight nowadays.  I give up trying to convince you otherwise, though.

You're entirely right that the new CTS is a fantastic car in every way.  But your argument falls to pieces when you remember that this is GM's only car that supports your claim that they've changed.  Whereas you can get into any Audi or any Mercedes and be impressed, you get into most GM's and find yourself unimpressed.

So yes, the CTS (and, by reports, the Malibu) are great.  But remember that that's one model out of the dozens offered by GM.  Sorry, but in my book the cry "We have one (or two) good models!" just doesn't cut it.

Would you rather go and watch a fantastic movie, or a mostly crappy movie with a couple good scenes?

[Sir Osis of Liver]

kevlar, you’re a loony. The manual transmissions that Ford uses in the Focus and Fusion are identical to the ones in the Mazda3 and Mazda6, both are slicker than snot on suede.

The manual transmission in the Cobalt and G5 is the same as the very German Opel Astra (Actually all of these use the same tranny: Chevrolet Cobalt, Chevrolet HHR, Saturn Vue, Saturn Ion, Opel Corsa, Opel Meriva, Opel Combo, Opel Astra, Opel Vectra, Vauxhall Corsa, Vauxhall Meriva, Vauxhall Astra, Vauxhall Vectra.)

The CTS had an ok manual sourced from Getrag, who makes most of the manuals for BMW. They’ve gone with a slicker 6 speed sourced from Aisin, which supplies transmissions for most of the Japanese makers.

Furthermore, you’ve obviously never driven a Merc or most Toyota manuals. Very heavy mechanical feel, lots of resistance, most with long throws too. Not conducive to quick shifts at all. The Toyota ones will break-in in time, but of the 4 Toyotas I’ve had, 3 got “crunchy” when doing a 2-3 shift.

You seem to insist that the NA manufacturers aren’t producing small cars, and then proceed to list off all of the Japanese (Mazda, Honda, Toyota, Mitsubishi, Suzuki and Nissan) models and Korean (Hyundai and Kia) models. Well of course 3 car companies aren’t going to offer the same number of vehicles as 8! Are you expecting them to develop individual models specifically designed to cover off each and every one of their competitor’s models?

Where specifically do you see holes in their line-ups? Toyota has everything from the Yaris to the Sequoia; GM has everything from the Aveo to the Suburban, and in several versions, the actual topic of the thread. The only segments missing from Ford and Chrysler are the B-car segments which Ford will rectify with the Fiesta, and Chrysler will likely rectify with a Mitsubishi or Hyundai rebadge.

Your blather about car sizes is intriguing as well. Have you seen the latest Camry, Avalon, Maxima or Accord? They’re within spitting distance of the dimensions of the hyper-thyroidal Chrysler 300, and bigger than a Buick Allure. The Civic now is larger than the Accord was in the late 1980s, but it is AMERICAN companies that are producing environment killing land yachts.

As I said before: 1995 called, they want their prejudices back.

[toolatecrew]

I wonder if we will ever get to the point where the technology (some kind of video goggles or something) where true "bind" testing can be done on vehicles. To be able to send someone out on a track and have them only know how the vehicle, seats switchgear feel and react without knowing what name is on it or where it is made.

Since I do drive a fair number of different cars (rentals etc) I feel very confident that cars do feel different. That O could tell a Cobalt from a Civic "with my eyes closed". The reason that people have a perception of a manufacturer as making reat cars or poor cars is mostly based on people's experience with the most popular models. This is where the big 3s issues lie.

If you surveyed 100 people here maybe 50% of them would say yes I've been in a Cobalt or a Corolla. Only maybe 1% would say yes I've been Ina CTS. The CTS is by all accounts a fantastic world class. If a CTS sold for 19 K and everyone got to drive one people would say GM builds a fantastic world class car. They assume (to some degree) it was representative of the entire GM line. But they don't the majority of people drive Cobalts.

Its very nice the GM builds the Cts, Ford builds the GT or the Chrysler builds the ..uhhmmm I'm reaching here. But until these folks best cars are reserved only for the select few while Honda builds the fit, civic and accord there is going to be a markedly better perception of the company as a whole that puts great vehicles into the hands of the masses.

GM is trying with the Malibu. If they had a midsized like the Malibu, a Cobalt = to the Civic and Corolla and a car the = of the Fit the company image as a whole would go though a huge change.

Ford's fusion I think is competitive in its class but where is the competitor in the compact and sub compact class?

its great that the CTS is great but it doesn't spill over to the other brands. No one says the CTS is great so the G5 or Bonneville should be great too. Just another reason to trim brands.

[safristi]

Chrysler builds the VIPER   and several Hemi's   ...........not too much of a stretch /reach there too late??

[Sir Osis of Liver]

Aveo vs Fit--> Fit by a long shot
Astra vs Civic--> I like hatches and don't like spaceship styling, so Astra
Cobalt SS vs Civic Si --> Speed rules in quick cars so Cobalt SS
Malibu vs Accord--> I could go either way, neither will set the heart to fluttering
Vue vs CRV --> neither, small tippy, tall wagons don't make sense to me
Acadia vs Pilot--> Acadia hands down
Canyon vs Ridgeline --> Ridgeline hands down
Solstice GXP vs S2000 --> S2000 is the logical answer, but I love the look of the Solstice, much cheaper too.
Camero vs Accord Coupe --> If I were a coupe kind of guy, Camero
Sierra vs
Yukon vs
Suburban vs
vs Odyssey
CTS VS TSX ---> CTS RWD and manual tranny wins
CTS-V
STS vs RL ---> STS RWD or AWD, your choice
Enclave vs MDX ---> Enclave easily, not my kind of car, but hugely impressive inside and out.

My personal tally (your mileage may vary): GM 8, Honda 2 with two draws.

I've never been a GM fanboy, ever. But I give credit where credit is due. From where I'm sitting GM is competitive in most categories, which certainly wasn't the case in the 1980s, 1990s, or the early bit of this century.

[Ex-airbalancer]

Should you have Avalanch against Rigeline?

[ArticSteve]

I've never been a GM fanboy, ever. But I give credit where credit is due. From where I'm sitting GM is competitive in most categories, which certainly wasn't the case in the 1980s, 1990s, or the early bit of this century.

 

[Snowman]

I've never been a GM fanboy, ever. But I give credit where credit is due. From where I'm sitting GM is competitive in most categories, which certainly wasn't the case in the 1980s, 1990s, or the early bit of this century.

 

 

[ArticSteve]

opps  ... I failed to highlite the text (part of Big Thumbs fantasty post ) fixed   

[Snowman]

opps  ... I failed to highlite the text (part of Big Thumbs fantasty post ) fixed   

 Phew, for a minute I figured you stopped drinking the Toyota Kool-Aids..... carry on.

[dr_spock]

I am very biased, considering I just bought a 07 Buick (and I am 20 years old ).
For people who are large and like a car with a lot of storage space, room, and a more powerful engine than most an I4, Buick is a smart choice. It comes with a 80k/160k powertrain warranty, and is #1 for reliablity (tied with Lexus).

How's the insurance on the Buick for a 20 years-old? 

[Mitlov]

You're entirely right that the new CTS is a fantastic car in every way.  But your argument falls to pieces when you remember that this is GM's only car that supports your claim that they've changed. 

That's not my argument.  Here is a list of cars GM offers that I think are highly competitive in their segments (not perfect for everybody...only a partisan fanboy would make such an argument, but highly competitive).  These cars aren't single-minded like the Corvette and Cobalt SS Turbo, which excel on the speed and price front but lag elsewhere.  They're genuinely well-rounded, competent, vehicles that many buyers would enjoy:

Saturn Astra--compact economy cars.
Chevy Malibu--family sedans.
Saturn Vue--compact crossovers.
Saturn Outlook, GMC Acadia, Buick Enclave--large crossovers and minivan substitutes.
Cadillac CTS--luxury sports sedans.

That covers nearly every common genre besides subcompacts.  I'm not saying that GM only makes good cars (the Aveo, G6, DTS spring to mind as truly uncompetitive in their classes); but I'm saying that GM now makes a highly competitive option in essentially every popular market segment.

(Even though I think the new Silverado and Tahoe are highly competitive with vehicles like the Tundra and Sequoia, I'm not going to get in to the whole truck thing).

Would you rather go and watch a fantastic movie, or a mostly crappy movie with a couple good scenes?

When I buy a car, I buy a car, not a car company.  I don't care if the STS is dog crap if I'm buying the CTS.  Similarly, the fact that the WRX is really cool didn't make my Legacy 2.5i ownership any more exciting or fun or even pleasant.

[Mitlov]

honda, toyota, bmw, merc, nissan, vw/audi and mazda have all proven you don't need a dozen divisions to be successful.

Terrible examples.

Nissan/Infiniti is in a partnership with the Renault group, which owns Renault, Samsung Motors, and Dacia.  The Renault group also has a controlling share (though a minority share) in Volvo trucks.  Six marques.

The Volkswagen Auto Group includes Volkswagen, Audi, Seat, Skoda, Lamborghini, Bentley, and Bugatti.  It is also closely tied with Porsche.  Eight marques.

Ford has a controlling share (though a minority share) in Mazda.  So Mazda is effectively part of the same corporate umbrella that includes Ford, Mercury, Lincoln, and Volvo, and until recently Jaguar, Land Rover, and Aston Martin.  Five marques now; eight marques as of a few years ago.

Toyota has Scion, Toyota, Lexus, a majority stake in Daihatsu, and a minority shareholding in Fuji Heavy Industries (which owns Subaru), Isuzu Motors, and Yamaha Motor.

Mercedes has Mercedes-Benz, Smart, and Maybach, and until last year had Chrysler, Jeep, and Dodge.  If I recall correctly, it's in talks to acquire Aston Martin.

Honda, with its two brands, is the best example of what you're talking about.  BMW has three (BMW, Mini, Rolls-Royce), and is talking about creating or acquiring a fourth eco-oriented brand.