Author Topic: So many GM brands.....  (Read 49864 times)

Offline Diesel Advocate

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Re: So many GM brands.....
« Reply #20 on: July 09, 2008, 02:45:14 pm »
I will never understand why GM is still using the multiple brand business model.  It worked in the 60's when there was only the big 3.  Times have changed and GM has not.  I am having a hard time sympathizing with GM now.  Why sell the same car with 3 or 4 different badges?  Hyundai/KIA and Honda/Acura are now having limited success doing it yet GM seems to think having duplicate vehicles like the Saturn Outlook, GMC Acadia, Buick Enclave and the Chevy Traverse will mean sales success.  GM needs to stop creating overhead and chop brands.  Namely, Pontiac, Hummer, GMC, Saab and Buick.  Keep Saturn as the Opel arm and run it as it should be, the niche European brand.  Chevy has always been the breadwinner and the other brands are a distraction.  Concentrate on the core brands (Chevy and Cadillac) and stop the "make work" projects.  Sales dictate it doesn't work anymore.

I quite agree. IMO, this is how GM should operate:

Corvette: Own niche brand similar to the model BMW has with the Mini.
Saturn/SAAB: Opel arm - Niche European Models. Dump the 9-7x for heavens sake!! and put a European interior into the Aura or wait for the upcoming Opel Insignia. Dump the Outlook and Vue. Bring in the Opel Zafira and any other small Opel. They are all good.



.
Chevy: Bread & Butter Family Vehicles  Remove anything considered sporty/Trucks/CUV vehicles. Absorb any Small Pontiac models such as the WAVE and possibly Vibe.
Pontiac: Sporty domestic Brand: Coupes, Roadsters, Sports Sedans (Not G5 Sedan): Remove all Pontiac SUV/CUV's and small cars. Totally restyle where required to make Pontiac totally unique from Chevy.
Cadillac: Domestic Luxury Brand
GMC: All Trucks, SUV's, CUV's seeing as GMC do not do cars. Absorb the Saturn Vue.

Dump Buick and Hummer. No need for Hummer these days and Buick is to close to Cadillac.

There should be nothing that GM could be accused of cynical badge engineering. The use of shared platforms does not apply here.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2008, 02:53:20 pm by Diesel Advocate »

Offline erich

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Re: So many GM brands.....
« Reply #21 on: July 09, 2008, 03:02:33 pm »
Sharing platforms and engines can be done much better than the badge engineering common in Detroit.
Example: VW/Audi/SEAT/Skoda - you can recognize the different brands/models at a glance, sometimes only the identical wheelbase gives a hint of the common platform.
Modern technology can help - IIRC the Volvo S40 and Mitsubishi Charisma shared a common platform and were produced on the same line in a plant in Holland.

Offline sirAQUAMAN64

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Re: So many GM brands.....
« Reply #22 on: July 09, 2008, 04:39:21 pm »
There are a lot and some weak brands, but I think each could be kept and focused (both product and market positioning) much better for success locally and globally.

I'm not really a Chevy fan. I would pick the Pontiac almost every time (Malibu is nice, but that's about it). Chevy is so friggin' bland and common, but it sells. Once Chevy's product is more relevant to me, perhaps I'll feel different about the need for other brands but for now the Bow-Tie is borrr-riiiing.

Pontiac needs to be more authentically sporty and stand-out from the rest of the GM models. It should be performance, aggressive styling, and handling - not just talking about it.

GMC is redundant, but again I nearly always prefer the GMC over the Chevy Truck (exception being the current Tahoe/Suburban). Truck buyers are loyal enough, and really, the product is not that much different that it costs much on the engineering side to continue. Would likely cost much more money to buy the dealers out. With the US following Canada's franchising of Pontiac-Buick-GMC dealers I would hope GMC's position in the US will strengthen more towards what it is in Canada, tho unlikely to get anywhere near the same level there. 

Cadillac is becoming quite edgy and progressive, which it needs to be, but perhaps too much so for 'traditional' buyers who don't want the firm suspension and tighter dimensions. Buick should remain affordable cushy luxury (Camry/ES-like), but done better than in the past. 3 models done right is fine with me for now.

It's a shame Saturn is underperforming, but it's probably the brand I'm most positive on, and the one with the highest CSI. That said, seems every time they come out with Saturn the duplicate of it winds up being better - the case with the AURA/Malibu, and I feel the Outlook isn't as attractive as any of the other Lambdas. I hope GM continues with it, and imports/builds in NAmerica true Opel models. Even if not the breadwinner could be a source of passionate faithful followers - more Volkswagenesque but a company that actually provides product we want at the time we want it unlike VW. With Ford set to impress in the next 2 years I think they ought to get their act together and use Saturn to their advantage far more than they have been.

Saab is down and out, but that's largely to do with aging stale product along with problems of dealer network and awareness/consideration. If Volvo's acceptable, no reason Saab can't be and with fresh product it'd probably sell well enough in Europe versus starting from scratch with Cadillac... but Cadillac should definitely be global, and share some with Saab IMO.

Hummer is the question mark. As a niche vehicle, it's fine. Jeep and Hummer have a place, albeit small. But Hummer would need more affordable models to make a true go of it as a franchise, or profitability and not volume would have to be the priority. 

Regardless of the outcome, GM does a poor job of platform sharing/cloning. Sharing components and drivetrains is fine, but many vehicles are darn near copies of each other or poorly reflective of the brand's aspirations which just undermines all parties.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2008, 09:46:21 am by sirAQUAMAN64 »
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weebl

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Re: So many GM brands.....
« Reply #23 on: July 09, 2008, 04:39:41 pm »
I don't think platform sharing is a bad thing, in fact, it can hugely reduce product costs.  Nissan had to learn the hard way.  At it's simplest, it is merely badge engineering, which GM does a lot of so that many of their divisions can sell the same vehicle.

VW/Audi/SEAT/Skoda as Erich said is a good example of how platform sharing can create quite distinct vehicles.  Another example is the Toyota Camry platform - used to make the Camry, Solara, Avalon, Sienna and Lexus ES.  All quite different vehicles, but derived from the same platform.

Offline ovr50

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Re: So many GM brands.....
« Reply #24 on: July 09, 2008, 06:40:32 pm »
GM followers may wish to read the attached:

http://www.autoextremist.com/

Or maybe like GM management, they would prefer to keep their heads in the sand.  ;)
« Last Edit: July 09, 2008, 07:09:01 pm by ovr50 »
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Offline ArticSteve

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Re: So many GM brands.....
« Reply #25 on: July 09, 2008, 10:23:08 pm »
Good read.

For BARRIE    :heart:



barrie1

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Re: So many GM brands.....
« Reply #26 on: July 10, 2008, 12:40:36 am »
Why would I want to make myself sick Steve? Probably some pile of BS you have dreamt up anyways wether there's any truth in it or not. GM has already started changing the truck lines with the Chev trucks being the W/T and the GMC being the more upscale models which the supervisor construction folks seem to really like. The only line I can possibly see going is the Pontiac line as its too close to the Chev products but not Buick or any of the others. Actually some of the vehicles from Europe might sell quite well here if given the chance. I wonder if they would be classed a sduty free like the Japanese get now tho or get shafted like the Big 3 are already from our rotten Gov.  :)

Offline tpl

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Re: So many GM brands.....
« Reply #27 on: July 10, 2008, 05:28:58 am »

...
 The only line I can possibly see going is the Pontiac line as its too close to the Chev products but not Buick or any of the others. Actually some of the vehicles from Europe might sell quite well here if given the chance. I wonder if they would be classed as duty free like the Japanese get now tho or get shafted like the Big 3 are already from our rotten Gov.  :)

Barrie, the Big 3 were offered duty free entrance for their European brands a few years back ( Jaguar, Volvo, Opel,Saab, etcetera)  and refused it.   They refused it because the deal was that EVERY company would get duty free access including the Japanese and Germans. I remember this being discussed in The Globe and Mail. 
I don't think the Japanese get duty free entrance now, its 6% in Canada same as the Euro brands like M-B and BMW.
The most radical revolutionary will become a conservative the day after the revolution.

Offline tpl

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Re: So many GM brands.....
« Reply #28 on: July 10, 2008, 08:01:34 am »
Vauxhall as a  car brand has been around since the very  1903  Opel since 1863 so maybe GM ought to be renamed Opel.

Offline Thinking Out Loud

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Re: So many GM brands.....
« Reply #29 on: July 10, 2008, 08:14:52 am »
Maybe GM should look at a 'yank the bandaid off in one pull' rather than a tug-here / tug-there when every hair hurts as you pull it off.

Will rebranding cost them sales?  According to some posters and common sense, definitely - enough to bankrupt them once the one-time costs of realigning franchises and reduces product/advertising costs are taken into account - unlikely.

They are willing to spend hundreds of millions in employee buyouts to eliminate the high end labour - what's another couple of hundred mill in one-time charges directly attributed to paying out franchisees, closing stores and rationalizing the distrubution system? 

This is a Lee Iaccoca moment for GM and Rick Wagonner - people want (and need) to see GM succeed.  Like a supertanker moving at 30 knots, the new product is a great first step but the General has only changed direction by a few degrees for the effort so far.

Stock Traders at this point would likely reward GM for something dramatic with a big uptick in value if they saw anything that sniffed of GM's version of a K-Car (alebeit organizationally than product).





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Offline toolatecrew

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Re: So many GM brands.....
« Reply #30 on: July 10, 2008, 12:54:27 pm »

...
 The only line I can possibly see going is the Pontiac line as its too close to the Chev products but not Buick or any of the others. Actually some of the vehicles from Europe might sell quite well here if given the chance. I wonder if they would be classed as duty free like the Japanese get now tho or get shafted like the Big 3 are already from our rotten Gov.  :)

Barrie, the Big 3 were offered duty free entrance for their European brands a few years back ( Jaguar, Volvo, Opel,Saab, etcetera)  and refused it.   They refused it because the deal was that EVERY company would get duty free access including the Japanese and Germans. I remember this being discussed in The Globe and Mail. 
I don't think the Japanese get duty free entrance now, its 6% in Canada same as the Euro brands like M-B and BMW.

Come on facts have no place here. If it dfoesn't come from a CAW newsletter it must be false.

unctuous

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Re: So many GM brands.....
« Reply #31 on: July 10, 2008, 03:39:03 pm »
Can't dump Buick - it has too big a following in China.  I would like to see Buick = Comfort Luxury(Mercedes),  Cadillac = Sporty Luxury(BMW)

Offline erich

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Re: So many GM brands.....
« Reply #32 on: July 10, 2008, 03:58:16 pm »
Another interesting article about why GM's troubles are bad for others too (and the reasons are not what you think):

http://www.forbes.com/home/2008/07/09/gm-washington-detroit-oped-cx_jt_0710tamny.html

Offline safristi

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Re: So many GM brands.....
« Reply #33 on: July 10, 2008, 06:40:49 pm »
..have the Chinese symbols for "OLDE FART_MOBILE" been mis_translated as "HARD FAST FERRARI".... :think: :shuffle:
Time is to stop everything happening at once

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Re: So many GM brands.....
« Reply #34 on: July 10, 2008, 07:15:57 pm »
Can't dump Buick - it has too big a following in China.  I would like to see Buick = Comfort Luxury(Mercedes),  Cadillac = Sporty Luxury(BMW)

buick in china??   i didn't see one. i was just there 5 months ago.   i saw hundreds of audis, mercedes and bmws though.   don't you love communism errr communitalist   

And this is why anecdotal evidence is so useless.  As of June 27, 2008, the Volkswagen Santana was China's best-selling sedan, and the Buick Excelle was the second-best-selling sedan.

http://www.marketavenue.cn/Database_2.asp?id=1814

Offline ArticSteve

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Re: So many GM brands.....
« Reply #35 on: July 10, 2008, 10:54:03 pm »
Indeed, this Buick Excelle is a rebaged 2005 Chevy Optra sold in Canada from Korea.  Since when is that a "Buick" and how does that help Buick in NA sell more cars.  ???

Offline KRS

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Re: So many GM brands.....
« Reply #36 on: July 10, 2008, 11:46:00 pm »

 
when you think of the most successful automobile companies presently, toyota/lexus, bmw, vw/audi, honda/acura, mercedes, fiat you wonder why gm needs so many divisions.  it's confusing and redundant.  gmc, pontiac, buick, hummer, pontiac, saturn, chevy, caddy.   and to top it off, then they created opel, and vauxhall.

   If I'm not mistaken Fiat group has the Fiat, Lancia, Alfa Romeo, Abarth, Maserati, Iveco and Ferrari brands. Obviously these brands have a much clearer brand identity then GM's but in my view the Alfa Romeo, Maserati and Ferrari brands  seemed to be going for the same performance car buyers just as in my opinion it seemed, till recently, Cadillac and Buick were going for the same aged luxury car buyer.
 
  VW/Audi as well has the VW, Audi, Porsche, Seat, Bentley, Skoda, Lamborghini, and Bugatti brands.

  It seems to me GM's bigger problem isn't that they have to many brands but that the identity of the individual brands has been lost (and of course, some lousy vehicles in the 80's, 90's and start of this decade). Unless they can find a way to reestablish each brand as a leader in a particular specific market segment then they may as well consolidate nameplates, but if they can reestablish a distinct identity for each brand then it seems likely that the advantages would out way the costs
 
 
Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats.<br />        H. L. Mencken<br />      (1880 - 1956)

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Re: So many GM brands.....
« Reply #37 on: July 11, 2008, 01:36:16 am »
Indeed, this Buick Excelle is a rebaged 2005 Chevy Optra sold in Canada from Korea.  Since when is that a "Buick" and how does that help Buick in NA sell more cars.  ???

How is a G8 really a Pontiac?  It's a Holden.  How is a Vauxhall Astra or Saturn Astra really those brands instead of an Opel?  Etc.  How is an Acura TSX really an "Acura"?  It's a Honda Accord in the UK.  Etc.  Thing is, this is all pointless semantics, because these are all GM (and Honda) subsidiaries.

The point is, the Buick name has pull in China.  I don't think anybody was saying that the fact that it has pull in China means it also has pull here.  But if people are talking about canning Buick worldwide, instead of just in North America, that's a terrible idea because the Buick brand name carries a lot of weight in the world's most populous country.

Offline Thinking Out Loud

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Re: So many GM brands.....
« Reply #38 on: July 11, 2008, 07:08:22 am »
Here is a question - with the newer Daewoo products , which still exists as a brand everywhere else on the planet, doing well and with GM's cash improving quality (although the eight year old Lanos we have in the extended family has been maintenance only):

ADD a Korean brand to the mix - Kia and Hyundai are ROCKING.  If you are cleaning out the Buick cobwebs in North Maerica, why not add in a brand that does appeal to a specific target market AND build inexpensive, SMALL cars?

GM needs BOTH, No?

Mitlov

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Re: So many GM brands.....
« Reply #39 on: July 11, 2008, 11:10:38 am »
you are comparing ferrari, maserati, bentley, vw/audi, bugatti etc with chevy, buick, pontiac and caddy??   those "divisions" of fiat and vw have very long histories of racing and branding recognition.   so now you want to try to revive brands that mean absolutely nothing to the general public?  its a big waste of money.  honda and toyota spent alot of money building their luxury brands for the past 25 years.  gm has spent the last 35 years turning their divisions into clones of each other. 

If you don't think that Chevy and Cadillac don't have "brand recognition," and those names "mean absolutely nothing to the general public," you're completely out-of-touch with the extremely large car market to your immediate south.  The same is true of Buick and Pontiac, though to a lesser degree.

Cadillac is a historic and automotive icon.  I didn't like the DeVille either, but that doesn't mean that Cadillac isn't an icon.  The fact that the phrase "the Cadillac of," meaning the biggest and fanciest of, is used in everyday speech by non-car-people says all that needs to be said.

Los Angeles Times: The Cadillac of Mars Rovers

Crave: The Cadillac of Kitchen Scales

Telepresence: The Cadillac of Videoconferencing

If that's not brand recognition, I don't know what is.