Topic: My first-hand experience with DSG

[Mitlov]

Took a GTI w/ DSG out for a spin today, mainly just to see what the transmission was like.  With more and more performance cars going to dual-clutch automated manuals as the only option (Ralliart, GT-R, R32 spring to mind), I wanted to see what it was like.

First impression:  This thing can shift better than I ever could.  Perfectly matched downshifts, never a hint of shudder when leaving a light, very quick, smooth shifts, etc.  If objective performance was a priority for me, I'd never buy another type of transmission, ever.

Second impression:  The disconnect was palpable.  I was thinking that if I quit thinking "this isn't a traditional manual" and just approached it with an open mind, it'd be at least as enjoyable as a traditional manual, perhaps more.  It wasn't.  I felt much more isolated from the engine compared to my Jetta. 

Overall, it's not nearly as bland as a traditional automatic, but it just wasn't as fun as a good ol' stick and clutch.  Still, if I dealt with gridlock on a daily basis, I'd gladly get one.  It's not nearly the sacrifice that a traditional auto is.  Since I live in a mostly-rural area, though, I'll be glad to stick with three pedals and a stick.

[quadzilla]

Did you try the 'auto' mode?  If so, how did it perform?

[Ice]

I've read a bit about the DSG style transmission...but the thing I didn't quite get was.  Is this an automatic with a "sportronic" style manual shifter or is it just another way of doing automatic?

[Mitlov]

Did you try the 'auto' mode?  If so, how did it perform?

Nope, didn't try it.

[Mitlov]

I've read a bit about the DSG style transmission...but the thing I didn't quite get was.  Is this an automatic with a "sportronic" style manual shifter or is it just another way of doing automatic?

It's not an automatic at all, in the traditional sense of the word (i.e., no torque converter).  It's actually closer in concept to a sequential manual.  It's a manual setup, clutch and all, except the clutch is electronically-controlled instead of foot-pedal controlled.  So it doesn't have that "slurring" feeling during shifts that an automatic does.

In a dual-clutch automated manual, like VW's DSG and Mitsubishi's SST, there are actually two transmission shafts.  One has even numbered gears, one has odd.  There's a clutch for each, so as you disconnect from one, you connect to the other.  Hence the quick shifts.

[Ice]

So...if I'm getting this right...you still have the stick shift but there isn't any need for operating a clutch while shifting gears?

[mmret]

How do you creep?

[initial_D]

Don't think there is the traditional H pattern.

[initial_D]

[auto_enthusiast]

Drove my friends A3 2.0 Turbo several months back and it was interesting.

I believe there is a built in amout of "creep" just like a normal automatic transmission.   As for shifting gears, it's all in the paddles behind the steering wheel and the shifts were very crisp and smooth. 

But I can agree that it's definitely less engaging than a normal manual...

[Mitlov]

How do you creep?

It modulates the clutch for you, resulting in a very automatic-like creep.

IceandFire, you can either leave it in drive, where it shifts for you, or you can control it by tapping the shifter or using the steering-wheel-mounted shift paddles.  The driver input system is identical to a manumatic system on a traditional automatic, but the result feels very different.

[The Mighty Duck]

Second impression:  The disconnect was palpable.  I was thinking that if I quit thinking "this isn't a traditional manual" and just approached it with an open mind, it'd be at least as enjoyable as a traditional manual, perhaps more.  It wasn't.  I felt much more isolated from the engine compared to my Jetta.

Exactly.   I've seen many reviews say how great the DSG transmission is.  I disagree - I've no doubt it's fantastic from a speed-to-shift point of view, but in terms of driver engagement, it's no better than a traditional automatic with paddles...

And while many people will say it's not an automatic because it lacks a torque converter, I still disagree: to me a manual is a car with three pedals and a H-gated shifter.  A transmission with two clutches and an automatically controlled clutch that can automatically change gears is still an automatic... 

[rrocket]

  I disagree - I've no doubt it's fantastic from a speed-to-shift point of view, but in terms of driver engagement, it's no better than a traditional automatic with paddles...

Yea, F1 cars must not be terribly engaging to drive because they have paddles....

[initial_D]

My experience with manual-matic and (very limited time) with the likes of DSG is that they take a long while to get used to the overall feeling of driving the car. With a traditional 5 speed, it takes a lot less time, some cars only needs a few minutes. Perhaps I am too used to it, almost second nature, the brain knows what will happen and what to expect. To flip the lever in the "+" / "-" fashion actual requires thinking, and the exception is something new. For me, anyway.

I am starting to like the new DSGs.

[Snowman]

Paddle shifts are like putting your dick in a milking machine - it's more efficient but just not as much fun. ~ Jay Leno

[tpl]

Well I actually have one after 40 years of driving manual ( from synchro free 1950's  junk gearboxes  to my 330 with the UUC shortshift kit)

After a month I am in agreement with Mitlov.   There is a disconnect indeed.

Treated as an automatic, IMHO it is INFINITELY better than a slush box. No slurring between gears, no rise in revs without rise in speed and so on.   The "creep"  is obviously carefully programmed so as not to scare people used to an automatic. 

Treated as a clutchless manual.  I truly dislike the way that one has to move the lever sideways to get into manual mode and once there have to move it back again into the main plane of movement before going into N. One day I am sure I will break something with that.    To me it is unnatural to push the lever FORWARDS to change up and pull back to change DOWN.   I think it should be the other way for ex-manual drivers.
I don't like the paddles a) not big enough and b) attached to the wheel not the column.  Changing up 1st to 2nd when pulling away from a corner, the UP paddle is always upside down on the other side of the wheel ( I am a "shuffler" not an "arm crosser")   I also find myself hitting the DOWN shift ( paddle or stick)  once too many times when coming to a stop and ending up at 6000 rpm in 1st. There is a gear display but I am not used to looking for that, I am used to the spacial thing of knowing where the lever is and of course you don't know

The programming in manual mode is not perfect in that it can be jerky when slowing to a stop or nearly to a stop and then accelerating.  Maybe this is unavoidable as 1st and 3rd are on the same shaft.

For all the complaints, some of which could be fixed with a flash of new code in the computer it is rather nice transmission.      I'd like to try one with the  gear lever replaced with a motorcycle sequential shift including neutral  and, with a detent, reverse .    R,N,1,2,3,4,5,6  should be possible to make a console mounted "paddle" that does that but as I say above I want the lever to have distinct positions for each gear.

I do not regret buying the DSG.

[wing]

The mitsu-SST is a BILLION times better in all respects to what you mentioned tpl.

It is smoother on downshifts, the automatic mode is much smarter and the paddles are HUGE and on the column.  Loved it.

[tpl]

The mitsu-SST is a BILLION times better in all respects to what you mentioned tpl.

It is smoother on downshifts, the automatic mode is much smarter and the paddles are HUGE and on the column.  Loved it.

Ok Wing. Good.  But the automatic mode is already smart enough in the VW,  I have difficulty imagining how to improve that.

And maybe the 7 speed DSG in one version of the forthcoming Tiguan will be.    I don't think it unlikely that at some point my car will get a flash to change the transmission software.

Note all that I am 90%+ happy with the DSG and think it is a great idea and the sooner ALL the archaic fluid logic slushboxes in all brands are replaced by DSG like transmissions the better.   BMW supposedly will be replacing the SMG with a DSG type gearbox over the next few years.

Just for fun.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preselector_gearbox      is the obvious forerunner of the DSG. I remember it on London Transport buses when I was a kid.

[dougjp]

Driver disconnect - exactly. Couldn't find those words before. As a result of it, my wife drives the DSG now and I went back to buying a car with a stick. I'm sure from what I've read that the Mitsu version has more aggressive software/performs more intelligently, and for example won't be as likely to be in the wrong gear mid corner. However it isn't really about the best performance numbers. After all even the VW version quotes better acceleration numbers for the DSG than the stick in the same car.

[Loudpedal]

Commuting and wifey not driving a manual means that future vehicles must be autos.  While I really like the GTI and A3, I'm concerned about long term longevity and costs.  I usually drive my cars for 8-10 years, and I'm not sure that a VW/Audi with DSG is an 8-10 yr car.   

I'm glad that Mistu is coming out with the SST and I'm looking forward to the Ralliart.

I just wish that Honda offered a dual clutch tranny in the Civic Si or TSX...or anything for that matter.