Author Topic: CAW's Idea for Marketing GM Products - Remember Pearl Harbour!  (Read 30248 times)

Offline Frontier1

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Re: CAW's Idea for Marketing GM Products - Remember Pearl Harbour!
« Reply #120 on: July 09, 2008, 07:33:01 am »
Mitlov - "No amount of manufacturing experience entitles someone to spout inaccurate facts without getting some criticism in return."

I agree, and that is one of my points. One would think that someone who spent that much time in an auto plant would understand a bit more about the realities of the current marketplace. It appears to be asking too much. I have witnessed over 5 years of inaccuracies and misleading posts that cannot be ignored. Union brain-washing is a dangerous thing, and, in this case at least, seems to have worked pretty well.

BS needs to be called. I have done so in the past, and will do so in the future (even if I am less involved with the Forum than before).

 :iagree:

barrie1

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Re: CAW's Idea for Marketing GM Products - Remember Pearl Harbour!
« Reply #121 on: July 10, 2008, 01:06:18 am »
What I get a kick out on here is that all you so-called experts have never been in the CAW,worked in a Auto plant or probably even a carlot let you know more about it then someone who has. Rrocket you have created parts for the Big 3 and then you run them down for feeding you with statements like cheap parts. You must produce a lot of garbage where you work then is my view.  The cars that are sold there are heavily taxed on import is the problem and why so few are sold as well. Itas obvious most of you folks only do selective reading as thats all your little pea brains seem to allow. Even our own inadequte Gov has questioned this practise from Japan and Korean. Read what you want but I hope its your job next and then maybe you will understand . Its a shame when it has to come to this but some of you really are clueless about the entire topic as you have only read one side of the story and fell for it.   Rrocket can you feed us some more spoon fed crap about your Union knowledge as its terribly lacking of any substance at all.  You have never 5 minutes experience but just spread more untruths everytime you talk about it. Thats a sad thing to do to your fellow workers but keep it up as your job will be going soon anyways as thats what you want to happen. What will be your excuses then? :( :( :(
« Last Edit: July 10, 2008, 01:10:44 am by barrie1 »

Offline ovr50

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Re: CAW's Idea for Marketing GM Products - Remember Pearl Harbour!
« Reply #122 on: July 10, 2008, 01:17:23 am »
Barrie's words:  "...you have only read one side of the story and fell for it."

Exactly my point....... ::) ::) ::)

Truer words were never spoken!!
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Mitlov

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Re: CAW's Idea for Marketing GM Products - Remember Pearl Harbour!
« Reply #123 on: July 10, 2008, 01:33:56 am »
Itas obvious most of you folks only do selective reading as thats all your little pea brains seem to allow.

Who could have predicted that when I linked to GM's own webpages about its operations in Japan and Korea, I would be called a pea-brain by a GM fanboy for believing those webpages?  So is GM complicit in the anti-GM conspiracy, or what?

Offline rrocket

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Re: CAW's Idea for Marketing GM Products - Remember Pearl Harbour!
« Reply #124 on: July 10, 2008, 02:52:40 am »
What I get a kick out on here is that all you so-called experts have never been in the CAW,worked in a Auto plant or probably even a carlot let you know more about it then someone who has. Rrocket you have created parts for the Big 3 and then you run them down for feeding you with statements like cheap parts. You must produce a lot of garbage where you work then is my view.  The cars that are sold there are heavily taxed on import is the problem and why so few are sold as well. Itas obvious most of you folks only do selective reading as thats all your little pea brains seem to allow. Even our own inadequte Gov has questioned this practise from Japan and Korean. Read what you want but I hope its your job next and then maybe you will understand . Its a shame when it has to come to this but some of you really are clueless about the entire topic as you have only read one side of the story and fell for it.   Rrocket can you feed us some more spoon fed crap about your Union knowledge as its terribly lacking of any substance at all.  You have never 5 minutes experience but just spread more untruths everytime you talk about it. Thats a sad thing to do to your fellow workers but keep it up as your job will be going soon anyways as thats what you want to happen. What will be your excuses then? :( :( :(

Ok...I'll try to answer these one at a time so you can understand.

1) We create the molds for the parts the way our customers tell us to create them.  The standards for GM are different than Honda. And Honda is different from Ford. They each have their own internal standards.  We often caution customers when they try to make shortcuts, whether with materials or a bad design. But it all comes down to doing what our customers want. And what they will pay for.  If GM wants to make an inferior mold or use inferior material, it's not up to us to foot the cost to make it better. They only pay us to do what they ask.  For example, I did a tool for Lexus.  It was a wheel beauty cover thing that covered the spare tire in the trunk. No one would ever look at this piece (unless they had a flat tire). But Lexus insisted the part be hard nickle plated. Crazy expense...for no great gain apart from durability and longevity of the mold itself, which means less part flashing over time. But you get the idea.  We do what our customers ask.

2) As far as vehicle taxing in Japan.  The American Big 3 cars aren't taxed in Japan any harder than the imports from Germany and abroad.  In Japan, the new Cadillac CTS is priced in the market nearly identical to what it is here...slotted between the 3 Series and the 5 Series. However GM does VERY well in China.  One of the top sellers.  Again...this is CAW garbage that has been spouted off to union members forever.  I have asked my friend James if the union has ever provided him with any proof of this, and he says no.  Have they provided you with this proof, Barrie?  This is a tired old rant that the CAW has been complaining about for 15 years!!!  15 YEARS!!!!

3) Prove to me what I said about unions being untrue.  That they are pricing themselves out of the market??  It's absolutely true. Everything I've said comes from the Union itself, from their very own web-page.  If I have something "internal" I need answered (like some issue in the newspaper that I need clarified) I ask James (my best friend), who works at the minivan plant. Here's a tidbit for you I got from James. The CAW and Hargrove said they would never stand for "two tiered" wages. I mentioned this to James. He says the CAW has already done it.  I say "WTF"? He says, with the unions blessing, Chrysler laid off many people. But as per the lay-off agreement, these people got hired at one of the new part contractors.  At half their current wages. So I sometimes get "juicy" stuff from James.  While he is grateful for his high paying wages, the union does many, many things he hates and disagrees with.  Again I say...prove to me anything I've said about the union as being untrue. 

4) I WILL be out of a job someday.  Why?  Because I am over-paid compared to what they pay sweat shops in China.  But unlike the CAW, we don't get raises that make us less competitive year after year after year.  We do things to increase our advantage as much as we can like more Lean Manufacturing, wage freezes (no raise for me in 5+ years), different ways of handling benefits and whatnot.  What does the CAW do?  Nothing...they blame the government, they blame the imports, they make excuses for this or that.  They don't actually DO anything to make themselves more competitive, they just complain and blame everyone.
 For example, our general shop rate for doing basic work is $75/hour or so. The basic shop rate of a plant in China we've dealt with? $12/hour.  Very difficult to compete with that.  But we do what we can to minimize lay-offs. We produce an exceedingly high quality product. Second, we produce a specialty product that not everyone can do. And like I said...we minimize needless expense.  The CAW isn't competitive with the USA/UAW for crying out loud!! Yet they demand raises that make them less competitive.  And not only are you behind the USA now (by at least $5/hour according to the CAW), you are nowhere near being competitive with Mexico and other 3rd world countries. But we have a bit of an "ace" up our sleeve. My job is SKILLED, unlike a CAW line worker. The infrastructure for schooling and training in China isn't quite there yet, so they have some catching up to do before they have the necessary skilled workers to take all of the skilled trade jobs away from us.  The CAW on the other hand has no such luxury. People with virtually no experience or education (as in Mexico and other developing countries) can assemble cars with little problem.  Bad for the CAW. 

I like you Barrie...we've met multiple times and have fun at the track.  But you simply don't post up anything to back up your ramblings. You speak from experience of the CAW while you worked for them during the glory years of the CAW.  Times have changed ALOT.  But you haven't.  You are set in your old, crusty ways about the CAW.  And that's the problem.  The guys running the CAW like Hargrove and Lewenza are "old school" guys like you. Dinosaurs.  Their old school thinking (like yours) is what's going to absolutely kill union line jobs.  The automotive industry landscape has changed enormously over the last several years alone....but thinking like yours and the current CAW leadership has not..and that's why the jobs will be gone in a few years.   
« Last Edit: July 10, 2008, 03:07:39 am by rrocket »
How fast is my 911?  Supras sh*t on on me all the time...in reverse..with blown turbos  :( ...

barrie1

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Re: CAW's Idea for Marketing GM Products - Remember Pearl Harbour!
« Reply #125 on: July 11, 2008, 02:56:14 pm »
Sorry Rrocket but your 2nd hand news is not uptodate with just about all of the CAW information you have already provided to us on here. There has been very few if hardly any things you have stated that are accurate yet yet alone in the past at all. I like you as well but you can't tell me anything about the CAW when you have absolutely no personal experience other then some friends of yours belong there. P.S. all the Caw contracts are slightly different so you cannot compare them to each other in any way at all. Even the Nurses in Ont are members I believe as of a year or so ago as well as many other trades which are non-automotive. Should they all get the higher wages. The highest wage increase I  ever received was 3% a year over a 30 year working period. We did not always get that either every year as it was not available so maybe it should have been more in my eyes as GM made their fair share of profit from me. What do you think your company charges per hour for your labour? Its not what you earn I can tell you for sure . GM charged $200.00 an hour for my services but I earned a heck of alot less then that I can say for sure even with benefits.  GM announced to-day that the US part has around 12 Billion in rserve which defintely is NO where's near bankrupcy at all. All of the lies and garbage like this only hurts a company and the folks spreading it should be hauled into court to be made to prove their claims. THey will all change their story then for sure.  >:(

Offline ovr50

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Re: CAW's Idea for Marketing GM Products - Remember Pearl Harbour!
« Reply #126 on: July 11, 2008, 03:37:19 pm »
Barrie - "prove their claims."

What a novel and great idea!! Maybe it will work for both sides of the argument?? Na, probably not... :P

Offline rrocket

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Re: CAW's Idea for Marketing GM Products - Remember Pearl Harbour!
« Reply #127 on: July 11, 2008, 08:33:41 pm »
Sorry Rrocket but your 2nd hand news is not uptodate with just about all of the CAW information you have already provided to us on here. There has been very few if hardly any things you have stated that are accurate yet yet alone in the past at all. I like you as well but you can't tell me anything about the CAW when you have absolutely no personal experience other then some friends of yours belong there. P.S. all the Caw contracts are slightly different so you cannot compare them to each other in any way at all. Even the Nurses in Ont are members I believe as of a year or so ago as well as many other trades which are non-automotive. Should they all get the higher wages. The highest wage increase I  ever received was 3% a year over a 30 year working period. We did not always get that either every year as it was not available so maybe it should have been more in my eyes as GM made their fair share of profit from me.

What do you think your company charges per hour for your labour? Its not what you earn I can tell you for sure 



Again...prove what I said is inaccurate.  You can't...because what I say comes direct from the CAW's web-site and their newsletter.  Yes..I get the CAW newsletter (from James), likely the same one you receive.  I also read the internal letters from James. So I am hearing all the same things you are, despite what you may think.  The nurses here do NOT go through the CAW (Import Queen is a nurse).  They have some branch of the CUPE here. Not sure about your area though.

As far as what I earn, it most certainly is less than what they charge for my services.  They make money off of me because they are in this for profit, and our laws allow this.  My owners (like the Big 3) put up all the risk, pay for all of the construction, equipment, and expenditures to make this business work, so they are entitled to make as much as they want, and for shareholders sake, as much as they can. As far as the Big 3 go (and what the CAW and yourself will NEVER understand) they COULD pay the unskilled lackeys on the line $100 per hour and STILL make money.  But they don't WANT to, nor do the have to.  That's what you guys don't get.  It's very simple economics.  Pay someone $25-$35/hr, or pay someone $4/hr like they do in Mexico.  At some point in time, the CAW will ask for too much and the Big 3 will do the math and determine it's more feasible long term to close the Canadian plants and set up shop somewhere else. The current deficit of $5/hr versus the USA is very doable for them now, but once legacy costs disappear in 2009-2010 and that deficit jumps to $15-$20/hr....it will be interesting to see what the Big 3's breaking point is.  Of course, the CAW will maintain their tactic of blaming everyone else for being so inflexible, blame the government for everything auto-related, and blame the imports. Sad to say, but the CAW is going to drive away auto plants in the coming years.

Offline DockMan

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Re: CAW's Idea for Marketing GM Products - Remember Pearl Harbour!
« Reply #128 on: July 12, 2008, 01:12:06 pm »
 :iagree: :iagree: Well said.
Political extremism involves two prime ingredients: an excessively simple diagnosis of the world's ills, and a conviction that there are identifiable villains back of it all. - John W. Gardner

Offline toolatecrew

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Re: CAW's Idea for Marketing GM Products - Remember Pearl Harbour!
« Reply #129 on: July 13, 2008, 08:54:25 am »
People who constantly complain that a company is "amking too much money" from my labour  need to do

1. Start their own company so they can be fairly compensated (after incurring the expenses and risks of over head etc)
2. Offer to take wage CUTS when the company loses money 
3 Both

I constantly hear "fair share of the profits" bandied about but NEVER hear "fair share of losses"

The government isn't doing enough to support the auto industry, the government is killing our country by allowing imports in, the big companies make money off me sounds like lots of places to place blame and a convient way to avoid doing ANYTHING at all yourself to me.

gmgod

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Re: CAW's Idea for Marketing GM Products - Remember Pearl Harbour!
« Reply #130 on: July 13, 2008, 12:39:14 pm »
GREAT IDEA. GOD BLESS ALL THE BRAVE SOULS . GOD BLESS THE ALLIES.  :rofl:

barrie1

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Re: CAW's Idea for Marketing GM Products - Remember Pearl Harbour!
« Reply #131 on: July 13, 2008, 10:18:59 pm »
Its unfortunate that you folks don't read theword news more as Canada is only one of the Countries who are complaining about this problem. Ireland and some of the Norwegian Countries have also brought this up at the UN general assembley as they have been locked out as well with the same nonsence. Not all of them produce vehicles but they do produce many other goods which have been blocked out entirely by the same rules.  Rrocket it seems now you admit what I have stated is true that it has been published for a while and you obvously have seen it. I also do more then just read my News Letters as i also atend my union Hall every week. I belong to local 27 here in london which is the only hall left in Canada I believe to stillhave our own very cheaply priced Bar and playroom. The usual pool tables and other machines. Beer is quite cheap especially on Fridays so I see the news live.  :)

Offline rrocket

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Re: CAW's Idea for Marketing GM Products - Remember Pearl Harbour!
« Reply #132 on: July 14, 2008, 04:07:48 am »
  Rrocket it seems now you admit what I have stated is true that it has been published for a while and you obvously have seen it.

No.  I most definitely don't admit what you says is true just because it's printed in a propaganda CAW newsletter.  I've read/heard these claims for nearly 20 years now (they're nothing new from the CAW talking heads), but have yet to see any evidence.  Do you automatically assume because the CAW says so it's true?

Offline Allen

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Re: CAW's Idea for Marketing GM Products - Remember Pearl Harbour!
« Reply #133 on: July 14, 2008, 07:35:32 am »
I belong to local 27 here in london which is the only hall left in Canada I believe to stillhave our own very cheaply priced Bar and playroom. The usual pool tables and other machines. Beer is quite cheap especially on Fridays so I see the news live.  :)

Yep that sounds like a union, lots of cheap booze to stimulate discussion and make sound decisions.  ::)

gmgod

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Re: CAW's Idea for Marketing GM Products - Remember Pearl Harbour!
« Reply #134 on: July 14, 2008, 08:04:06 am »
I belong to local 27 here in london which is the only hall left in Canada I believe to stillhave our own very cheaply priced Bar and playroom. The usual pool tables and other machines. Beer is quite cheap especially on Fridays so I see the news live.  :)

Yep that sounds like a union, lots of cheap booze to stimulate discussion and make sound decisions.  ::)

What are you trying to say??That is one of the most infantile statements I have ever heard. You have just managed to insult thousands of Canadians. Dipstick.

Offline tpl

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Re: CAW's Idea for Marketing GM Products - Remember Pearl Harbour!
« Reply #135 on: July 14, 2008, 08:08:11 am »
Apart form civil servants are there any Canadian union members left?  I thought that GM had fired them all so they could employ Koreans ( at Daewoo) and Mexicans.
The most radical revolutionary will become a conservative the day after the revolution.

gmgod

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Re: CAW's Idea for Marketing GM Products - Remember Pearl Harbour!
« Reply #136 on: July 14, 2008, 08:15:51 am »
Apart form civil servants are there any Canadian union members left?  I thought that GM had fired them all so they could employ Koreans ( at Daewoo) and Mexicans.

Like Toyota does here???Employ Canadians and make overtime mandatory and then when they get hurt fire them.

Offline Thinking Out Loud

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Re: CAW's Idea for Marketing GM Products - Remember Pearl Harbour!
« Reply #137 on: July 14, 2008, 08:25:39 am »
Barrie1 dropped his guard on the free beer comment in the middle of a budding flaming row, and Allen went for it.  

Anyone (regardless of what they do), complaining about how unfair and tough life is due to insert issue here, but at least the beer you cry into is cheap and the recreation is free/union dues subsidized, is more insulting to people the larger MAJORITY of people that don't have that luxury - and even within union ranks, as Barrie1 noted if 27 is the last.

That's where most people (unfairly) start to think unioners are myopic in their view of the world outside - but the same could unfairly be said about the rich, government, etc where being in any situation for so long means you forget what it was like to not have wealth, etc.

Fortune favours the bold!

Offline tpl

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Re: CAW's Idea for Marketing GM Products - Remember Pearl Harbour!
« Reply #138 on: July 14, 2008, 08:27:23 am »
Apart form civil servants are there any Canadian union members left?  I thought that GM had fired them all so they could employ Koreans ( at Daewoo) and Mexicans.

Like Toyota does here???Employ Canadians and make overtime mandatory and then when they get hurt fire them.

Are you Barrie's evil twin?     I do believe I prefer the real thing.

gmgod

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Re: CAW's Idea for Marketing GM Products - Remember Pearl Harbour!
« Reply #139 on: July 17, 2008, 04:33:43 pm »
the plant in oshawa doesn't produce cars that appeal to the public.  now lets say they retooled and produced another model there?  or they sell the plant and ford, vw, audi, bmw or mercedes start producing cars there.    well the CAW wages are still up almost 30 percent with respect to their american counterparts due to the cdn dollar.  the currency is killing a lot of the exporting industries in canada.  the CAW needs to realize this and have a plan to deal with this issue.   barrie i respect your hard work and sense of loyalty to gm but it is an american company. american is not canada.  (to me they are just as foreign as honda)  their loyalty is first to their their shareholders and then to their country. don't believe they don't think this way in detroit.  they would rather have the jobs in america if the costs are close.   i am curious but how do the wages of a GM worker compare to Honda and Toyota in ontario?  barrie do you have the comparison of wages and benefits? 

Art you nuts???? Seriously. People who work at Toyota make over 30 dollars an hour so don't whine about the unions. We owe more to the Americans than the Japanese. We don't have free trade with the Japanese. I could go on and on but aftyer reading your statement it would be a waste of time.