Author Topic: Car and Driver: GT-R vs 911 Turbo vs M3  (Read 14234 times)

Offline johngenx

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Re: Car and Driver: GT-R vs 911 Turbo vs M3
« Reply #20 on: June 04, 2008, 04:50:31 pm »
The article is dead-on about the 911 turbo.  Porsche is just asking WAY too much money for the car.  The M3, the GT-R, the Z-06, and on and on offer incredible combinations of performance at far less money.  The 911 just doesn't offer enough to justify the massive price premium.

Offline Zombie

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Re: Car and Driver: GT-R vs 911 Turbo vs M3
« Reply #21 on: June 04, 2008, 05:27:33 pm »
The article is dead-on about the 911 turbo.  Porsche is just asking WAY too much money for the car.  The M3, the GT-R, the Z-06, and on and on offer incredible combinations of performance at far less money.  The 911 just doesn't offer enough to justify the massive price premium.

This is very true and there must be sales numbers to prove it because I seem to always see M3s, Z-06s even S4 and RS4s (no  GT-Rs yet) but I hardly ever see any new 911 turbos around. I would say that I even see more Lombos and Ferraris then I do 911 turbos these days.
I still like the 911 T but its a hard sell for the money compared to the competition.
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Offline The Mighty Duck

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Re: Car and Driver: GT-R vs 911 Turbo vs M3
« Reply #22 on: June 04, 2008, 06:37:57 pm »
What else besides the GT-R, Z06, and Viper offer 911T levels of performance for less or even the same money?

(Prices from Edmund's, specs from Wikipedia.)

Porsche 911 Turbo - $126 200 - 473 bhp
Aston Martin V8 Vantage - $111 300 - 380 bhp
Aston Martin DB9 - $163 900 - 470 bhp
Ferrari F430 - $173 079 - 483 bhp
Lamborghini Gallardo - $185 000 -  513 bhp
Audi R8 - $109 000 - 420 bhp

Price wise, only the V8 Vantage and R8 come close, and both are down on power compared to the Porsche.  The F430, Lambo, and Aston Martin DB9 are all in the right ballpark power-wise, but at a price tag $50 000+ higher.

Yes, the 911 is overpriced compared to the GT-R, but the Nissan blows everyone out of the water, not just the 911.

My best guess on why the 911T might not be as popular as the Ferrari, Lambo, etc. is that people spending this kind of coin on a car don't want to look like they're driving a "mere" $70 000 Porsche 911.  A good eye will spot the big air ducts on the 911T, but it's easy for the general public to mistake a 911T for a run-of-the-mill Porsche...  but even the uninformed know what a Ferrari or Lamborghini is.  *shrug*  But who's to say the 911T doesn't sell as well?  The same may be true of all of us: we don't look twice if a 911 whips by, but we certainly notice when a Ferrari does so.  Maybe the 911 was a Turbo, maybe not...

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Re: Car and Driver: GT-R vs 911 Turbo vs M3
« Reply #23 on: June 04, 2008, 11:55:53 pm »
That GT-R is an amazing value for the money. How is Nissan making any money on this thing? $81,900 for a 3.3 to 3.5 sec 0-60mph and 11.5 to 11.7sec 1/4 mile. Simply amazing.  I know these numbers are not the be-all and end-all but the GT-R is also beating everything on the track times.


Now that the R8 is out I don't know why anybody would buy a 911?
I, also, don't understand why you'd buy a 911T, because for a "mere" $32,000 why not get a Gallardo. I assume MOST people buying in this price range are not financing or leasing. The reason I didn't say get the F430, usually there's a 2 year waiting list for Ferrari's V8, mid-engine cars.

According to CanadianDriver the prices are as follows:
2008 Prices
F430 - $186,925
911 Turbo - $158,300
911 Carrera S - $113,100
Gallardo - $190,600
R8 - $139,000
Z06 - $96,170
GT-R (2009 price) - $81,900


Reason I listed the CarreraS, is it's the closest thing to the R8 I could find.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2008, 01:14:40 am by Jameel »

Offline The Mighty Duck

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Re: Car and Driver: GT-R vs 911 Turbo vs M3
« Reply #24 on: June 05, 2008, 01:04:31 am »
The R8 is a very serious contender for the 911, I'll admit.  I still have a soft-spot for the Porsche, though: they are, afterall, the ones that took that insane idea of putting a high-power engine way out over the rear wheels and made it work.  :)

Still, I agree: the presence of the R8 on the block makes a 911 a much harder sell.  Mind, you could apply the same argument to the GT-R: with the super-Nissan around, why would anyone buy anything else?  There are other reasons beyond performance and value-for-dollar people buy cars...  I think Porsche has created a sense of "soul" in their products that keeps people coming back...  :)

Offline wing

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Re: Car and Driver: GT-R vs 911 Turbo vs M3
« Reply #25 on: June 05, 2008, 08:11:27 am »
R8 will be hard to buy, GT-R as well.  911 should be easy to get ... especially if nobody wants them ;).

Jameel, you would be surprised, people lease this super exotics (in price) as well -- I've seen them on lease busters for retarded monthly payments like $1800 a month and $60,000 buyout.

Offline wing

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Re: Car and Driver: GT-R vs 911 Turbo vs M3
« Reply #26 on: June 05, 2008, 08:12:33 am »

Offline evil_twin

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Re: Car and Driver: GT-R vs 911 Turbo vs M3
« Reply #27 on: June 05, 2008, 11:53:56 am »
You don't see many of any of those cars.  Although I don't notice many 911 Turbos out there, I'd have a hard time believing they don't sell more of them than F430s and Gallardos (No figures to back that up...so maybe I'm out to lunch)

Also, I think in this price range most people just buy whatever brand they're a fan of.  Some people are Porsche people, some are Ferrari, etc.  Sure, an F430 is more recognizable for the average person, but "Hans", "Klaus", and "Jeurgen" are probably still opting for the 911.

The 911T does seem a little more day-to-day livable as well doesn't it?  I dunno, I'd feel better about parking it in parking lot (albeit, at the very back), then I would a Ferrari.  You'd likely come out everytime to 3 people drooling all over your F430.

Offline DriverJeff

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Re: Car and Driver: GT-R vs 911 Turbo vs M3
« Reply #28 on: June 05, 2008, 12:15:28 pm »
Evil_twin, I think you've hit the nail on the head.  The 911 Turbo represents the ultimate Porsche (short of the track-ready and too-punishing GT2 / GT3s).  This is the car that the CEO can drive to work every day, rain or shine, but still afford a lot of 'car guy' bragging rights as being one of the most ferrociously accelerating beasts on the road.  The driving position isn't too extreme (compared to other super cars); there's room to take someone out to lunch and still put the briefcase in the trunk / backseat.  And it's forgiving to drive around town by what I've heard / read. 

Conversely, an F430 or Gallardo represents a less civilized manner of transportation.  Not everyone wants THAT much attention (ie. parking it in the boss's spot at work every day).  In days gone by, a Ferrari or Lambo needed much more constant tuning and attention -- I'm sure that's not the case now, but presumably they still require more than a Porsche?  The Italian super cars are less comfortable and less practical, and while I know none of these cars are a picture of practicality, the Porsche really does make a good case for itself for being a daily driver. 

Z06s and Vipers certainly offer the performance, but not the class or cachet befitting a high-level executive's daily car.  (Don't get me wrong, I would ABSOLUTELY LOVE a new Vette -- even a base model). 

Then along came the R8.  Suddenly another car could be driven daily to the office because it has the class required; plus offers genuine super car looks and performance.  This should be the car the Porsche guys lose sleep over.

The GTR's greatest downfall is still its brand.  Cars costing upwards of $100,000 are ALWAYS a luxury, and the people buying them are looking to show off or brag to a certain degree.  To some, it's badge bragging.  To others (and likely those who buy a GTR) it's bragging about the extreme performance and storied history of the Skyline.  The vast majority of the population at the Country Club or fine restaurant valet will look at someone showing up in an awkwardly-shaped Nissan and turn their noses up to it.  Impress the chicks?  Unlikely unless they're the type of woman who would hang out in a forum like this.  Very few people appreciate cars and peformance thereof the way we do here.

The GTR is very much like the STi from a few years ago.  Gawdy, but those who know it well, really appreciate the beastly performance that beats the crap out of anything priced anywhere near it.  Ultimately though, the people who can afford to buy one will likely grow tired of it within a couple of years like they did STIs and then move on to the newest automotive trend to show off.  We can only hope for Nissan's sake that the population of true, die-hard car enthusiasts who will actually use the car for weekend track events is big enough to support their tremendous efforts. 
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Re: Car and Driver: GT-R vs 911 Turbo vs M3
« Reply #29 on: June 05, 2008, 01:21:22 pm »
Here ya go, a GT3 for lease.

http://www.leasebusters.com/en/details.asp?ID=45157
Jus to clarify this is not a GT3 it's a Carrera with the GT3 package. Sorry just knit picking.

But this is another example, I guess I was wrong about people leasing these high priced cars: F430 Convertible, and only $3,226/month with $40,000 down. Sounds like a great deal  ::)
http://www.leasebusters.com/en/details.asp?ID=54371

I agree with you Giant Dwarf, a guy looking at buying a 911Turbo would never get a GT-R. But all I'm saying is for a mere $30,000 to $36,000 more you can get a F430 or Gallardo. Or for $20,000 less you can Get an R8.

Offline quadzilla

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Re: Car and Driver: GT-R vs 911 Turbo vs M3
« Reply #30 on: June 05, 2008, 01:58:32 pm »
But all I'm saying is for a mere $30,000 to $36,000 more you can get a F430 or Gallardo. Or for $20,000 less you can Get an R8.

Would love to have those decisions to make.  :-\

Offline The Mighty Duck

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Re: Car and Driver: GT-R vs 911 Turbo vs M3
« Reply #31 on: June 05, 2008, 08:13:14 pm »
^ This is a good point.  My old man doesn't drive his car to work because he doesn't want to show off to everyone that he drives a nice car...  so the Mercedes has stupidly low mileage since it's only driven a few days a month.

The Z06 makes a lot of sense for those sorts of people, since everyone knows a Corvette is relatively cheap (that is, it's not a Ferrari, anyway).  I sure don't look twice at a Corvette, but the other day we had a 911 Turbo in our parking lot and I was :drool:.  The day before that we had a Maserati Quattroporte...  sometimes I love my job.  :D

Offline rrocket

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Re: Car and Driver: GT-R vs 911 Turbo vs M3
« Reply #32 on: June 05, 2008, 08:19:12 pm »
My Supra looks "exotic" to many people..and rarely can I go anywhere without being stopped and people asking what it is (I have no badges on the car).  I see people in parking lots checking it out.  I don't think it's any different for a Porsche driver.  A few exotic owners at our club claim the Supra gets as much attention as their Ferraris or Porsches...but not as much as their Lambos. :)

I leave my car everywhere..often with the targa off..and have yet to have anything go missing.  Most people are pretty respectful to very nice cars, and often seem more careful around them.  The only time I've seen anything happen..I was right there when a couple of drunken women opened their car door into the Supra.

I have left the car in the US twice already for Tiger's games..and will be doing it again.

If you're too scared of parking your car..what's the point of even owning it?
How fast is my 911?  Supras sh*t on on me all the time...in reverse..with blown turbos  :( ...

Offline evil_twin

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Re: Car and Driver: GT-R vs 911 Turbo vs M3
« Reply #33 on: June 06, 2008, 10:00:24 am »
Don't be a hater Vman :D



And rrocket, I think we're making the same point.  Most people would have a hard time driving a Ferrari around BECAUSE they'd be afraid to leave it anywhere...and thus wouldn't buy it.

Your Supra is no doubt an impressive ride and would draw lots of attention, but it wouldn't give the owner as much anxiety to leave it around places.  For instance, if someone keys your car, it's pain in the ass and a b!tch to fix....but if someone keys your FERRARI...ouch $$$$$$$
« Last Edit: June 06, 2008, 10:24:07 am by evil_twin »

Mitlov

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Re: Car and Driver: GT-R vs 911 Turbo vs M3
« Reply #34 on: June 06, 2008, 10:31:58 am »
And rrocket, I think we're making the same point.  Most people would have a hard time driving a Ferrari around BECAUSE they'd be afraid to leave it anywhere...and thus wouldn't buy it.



Quote
                              FERRIS
               I'll give the guy a five to watch it.

                              CAMERON
               What guy?

     CU. PARKING ATTENDANT

     He smiles with relish at the car. 6'6", 240. An IQ that
     equals his hourly wage. Shoulder-length hair stuffed into a
     hairnet Gold teeth. Earring. Goatee.

     EXT. PARKING LOT

     The Attendant swaggers over to the car. Ferris slips him a
     five.

                              FERRIS
               You speak English?

                              ATTENDANT
               Since I was three.

                              FERRIS
               Great. I want to you take extra special
               care of this vehicle, okay?

     He pats the Attendant on the arm. He smiles.

                              ATTENDANT
               Like it's a beautiful woman.

                              FERRIS
               I appreciate it.

     The Attendant very gingerly gets into the car. Ferris turns
     to Cameron. The Ferrari pulls into the lot very slowly, very
     carefully. No squealing tires, no revving engine.

                              FERRIS
               See what a finski can do to
               a person's attitude? He's going
               to treat it like a beautiful
               woman.

                              CAMERON
               Yeah, sure. Whip it with a stick
               and :censor: on the hood.

                              SLOANE
               Oh, please, Cameron. Do you have to
               be so graphic?

     She heads down the street.

                              SLOANE
               This is so right!

     Ferris nudges Cameron on. They exit the garage and head
     after Sloane. A long beat and the Ferrari creeps down the
     exit ramp of the garage. It's gone in the entrance and out
     the exit. Another attendant jumps in the passenger side.
     He's skinny, tall, with a huge knit hat willed with dreads.
     He lets out a spirited laugh and the Ferrari peels out of
     the lot. It heads down the street away from Sloane, Ferris
     and Cameron.

Offline safristi

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Re: Car and Driver: GT-R vs 911 Turbo vs M3
« Reply #35 on: June 06, 2008, 02:00:46 pm »
 :rofl2:..I'm Juiced ....anyone UP fer a "RACE" along tha 401..... :P :-[ :-X :(
Time is to stop everything happening at once

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Re: Car and Driver: GT-R vs 911 Turbo vs M3
« Reply #36 on: June 06, 2008, 03:22:08 pm »
I don't agree with a couple of things that have been said.  Firstly, I see a ton of 911 Turbos driving around the financial district, they probably make up 1/4 of the 911s that I see (Aston Martins are now as easily spotted downtown as well).  I also disagree that the R8 is who Porsche should be afraid of - I see a 911 Turbo buyer as some rich guy who wants to have the best 911 (that isn't a real racer like a GT3) so he can say his is better than his neighbours, the 911 is a classic/classy car that is not out there stylistically and would not offend anyone, the R8 (which I love) is not in the same class, it's a showy racer like a Ferrari that can offend some senses - Porsche should be worried about Aston Martin not Audi.

Offline safristi

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Re: Car and Driver: GT-R vs 911 Turbo vs M3
« Reply #37 on: June 06, 2008, 04:32:30 pm »
..OK ...challenge...declined....armchair/Video Racers all.... ::) :P