Author Topic: Car and Driver: GT-R vs 911 Turbo vs M3  (Read 14241 times)

Offline evil_twin

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Car and Driver: GT-R vs 911 Turbo vs M3
« on: June 03, 2008, 11:55:40 am »
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/comparison_test/coupes/2008_bmw_m3_vs_2009_nissan_gt_r_vs_2008_porsche_911_turbo_comparison_test/(page)/1

I'm a big BMW fan, and even I can't see HOW they came up with that result.  The comparison really doesn't even make sense to begin with:  Is anyone cross-shopping a GT-R and an M3??  Maybe someone with $100k to burn and no real car knowledge...

Only comment I agree with was the verdict on the 911 Turbo:  "You could buy an M3 AND a GT-R" for the price.  An M3 sedan for work, hauling 4 people, etc...and the GT-R for weekend, track days....

...dare to dream.

Offline initial_D

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Re: Car and Driver: GT-R vs 911 Turbo vs M3
« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2008, 12:08:01 pm »
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/comparison_test/coupes/2008_bmw_m3_vs_2009_nissan_gt_r_vs_2008_porsche_911_turbo_comparison_test/(page)/1

  "You could buy an M3 AND a GT-R" for the price.  An M3 sedan for work, hauling 4 people, etc...and the GT-R for weekend, track days....

...dare to dream.

... and a Ferrari convertible to cruise on Daytona Beach on Sundays ...


All 3 cars are 2 door coupes, with a lot of horsepower. I will take anyone of those three anyday.

Offline tenpenny

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Re: Car and Driver: GT-R vs 911 Turbo vs M3
« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2008, 12:30:38 pm »
... giving it first place for, what really are philosophic reasons...

That's what Car and Driver (and, for that matter, all car magazines) do with every comparison I've ever read.  They come up with all kinds of measurements and comparisons, and then subjectively decide why some are more important than others, and  presto, there's your answer.  You can gain facts and information, but as far as using their proclaimed 'winner' as any useful measure, well, you're out of luck.
My diesel car self-identifies as an electric vehicle.

Offline safristi

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Re: Car and Driver: GT-R vs 911 Turbo vs M3
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2008, 12:42:57 pm »
 Right ON............... ;D...sorry about the E=Mc2 fackup.... da doo ron ron....
Time is to stop everything happening at once

Offline evil_twin

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Re: Car and Driver: GT-R vs 911 Turbo vs M3
« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2008, 12:43:24 pm »
Oh no doubt, if I had the dough for these cars, I'd be putting an M3 Coupe in my driveway for sure.  It's certainly the hands-down winner in terms of "day-to-day liveability + all the sport you really need"

I just don't see why they'd compare it to cars like the GT-R and 911 Turbo.  Those are balls-out sportscars that (I hope) no potential buyers are looking at as their one trick pony.

Either they're grading these cars as pure sporting toys (in which case the GT-R wins) or they're grading these cars as the best choice for real world life and driving (in which case, everyone already KNEW the M3 would win).


Offline tortoise

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Re: Car and Driver: GT-R vs 911 Turbo vs M3
« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2008, 01:22:57 pm »
Eh, it's more light reading than something to take seriously. 

Quote
Even if we remove the price issue from the charts, the GT-R still ends up ahead of the Porsche, primarily because it offers a real trunk and a marginally larger rear seat.
Only the slow and dim know where they're going in life, and seldom is it worth the trip. - Tom Robbins.

captain_ron

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Re: Car and Driver: GT-R vs 911 Turbo vs M3
« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2008, 02:22:17 pm »
If you could get a GTR for MSRP of 82k, why would you cross-shop it with a M3?

Offline Sir Osis of Liver

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Re: Car and Driver: GT-R vs 911 Turbo vs M3
« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2008, 07:38:43 pm »
Point of order! None of these cars are sports cars. They are all GTs.

For some reason I don't find any of them particularly compelling. ???
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Offline rrocket

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Re: Car and Driver: GT-R vs 911 Turbo vs M3
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2008, 08:24:03 pm »
I've always said that C&D is BMW Fan-Boy Central.  Need any further confirmation of this after this test? Not only winning, but winning by 15 points???  I mean...penalizing the GT-R 5 points because of it's back seats? And a further 1 point because there were no "manufacturers rebates"??  Nevermind that it beat or dominated both cars in nearly every single performance category.  And another thing...who cares if the Z06 got beat by the 911 in a different test?  Z06 should have been there for this test. It's a player in this category.

By using the criteria they used to score the victory for the M3, the IS-F, the C63 and the RS4 would have all "won" this test.  As would other, cheaper cars.  I mean...they weren't really using performance to determine the winner.  Heck...a 135i or a G35 MAY have been able to win this test.

And as far as cost....the GT-R costs what...about $7,000 more than an M3?  For all that extra performance?  Enough said.

Here's a letter I received from someone today:

Dear Nissan,

We want to apologize for not having the GT-R win our last comparison. Please don't feel bad. The GT-R really is a great car but since BMW is secretly our parent company, they demanded that their M3 win another comparison. Actually, we are contractually obligated to have a BMW win at least four comparisons a year.

We did give Nissan the inside back cover and wrote a nice one-year update on the Altima. There are also a couple of complimentary articles about the Infiniti G35xS and the FX50S. Oh and by the way, that FX50S is an impressive ride but you really need to do something about the silly "bionic cheetah" moniker that you've attached to it.

We feel badly about placing the GT-R behind the slower M3. Even though it is slower in the quarter mile, 0-60 and around a track, it does have a bigger back seat and more useable trunk space.

And speaking of a bigger back seat and more useable trunk space, your GT-R totally demolished the Porsche 911 Turbo which is a worthless car. By "worthless" we mean it is an okay enough car, but Porsche doesn't spend enough money advertising in our magazine. When was the last time you saw a two-page ad for a 911 or an inside cover ad for the Boxster? I wish we could stop covering their lame cars altogether, but they've weaseled themselves into an important position in the automotive industry with all of their performance, history and heritage so we can't ignore them.

Enough about the third-place finisher, the over-powered 911 Turbo. We are here to apologize for that second place finish to the M3. If we were really honest, the M3 wouldn't have been in the comparison. They are in totally different classes.

This article is the first in a new series with cars competing out of their class. We think our advertisers will love this new marketing plan. It will give prestige to the lower end cars. Next month we will have a Nissan Rogue beating the Porsche Cayenne Turbo S. Just think how Nissan salesmen all over the country will be able to promote it as the "SUV that beat the Porsche Cayenne!"

The month after that, the Nissan Sentra will win our small car comparison vs. the Lotus Exige. Of course we need to keep our journalistic integrity so it will be the base Exige vs the Nissan Sentra SE-R Spec V. The little Lotus won't stand a chance. I mean have you seen the back seat in an Exige? No, you haven't, because there isn't one. The trunk? Tiny! Rear doors? Nada!

The Sentra is obviously the superior car. A lot of automotive reporting outlets don't have the courage to compare an Exige to a Sentra, but we think it is time the world learns how good the Sentra is — or at least the SE-R Spec V version of the Sentra.

If you think about it, this will work out better for Nissan in the long run. The GT-R can withstand a second place finish to the benchmark BMW M3. Sorry, we are also contractually obligated to put the word "benchmark" at least once every time we write about BMW, and technically we are writing about them. Anyway, the first year of the GT-R is sold out, so a second place finish in our magazine isn't going to hurt GT-R sales.

Just think what the upcoming articles are going to do for your sales figures. You will have the GT-R to attract people to your dealerships. Moreover, once people are in your dealerships, you can show off the important things about cars, things like cup holders, trunk capacity and rear seat legroom. Ironically, those same features you have in other cars are what made the GT-R lose to the BMW M3 (and BMW's partial ownership in our little car rag).

In summary, we are truly sorry for the second place finish to the M3. We wanted to write it as a tie, but the Germans have no sense of humor and wouldn't allow it. We don't want this article to damage our relationship with Nissan. Please keep sending us GT-Rs; the Americans will keep buying it regardless of what we say.


Sincerely,

Car and Driver Magazine


How fast is my 911?  Supras sh*t on on me all the time...in reverse..with blown turbos  :( ...

Offline wing

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Re: Car and Driver: GT-R vs 911 Turbo vs M3
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2008, 09:23:47 pm »
:laugh:  That's about right.

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Re: Car and Driver: GT-R vs 911 Turbo vs M3
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2008, 11:04:57 pm »
As a C&D subscriber, I can say that they are unapologetic BMW fanboys.

My problem with this shootout is not that the M3 won because it was the most practical and most affordable of the three.  My problem is that its reasoning runs against other C&D tests that declared the 3-Series The Best Damn Car Ever.  M3 coupe versus C63 AMG and RS4?  The M3 wins because, although the others may be far more practical (both) and more pleasant at a sedate speed (RS4, by far), the M3 is better on the track and at a 10/10ths pace.  Now let's pit a 3-Series against a G35.  Never mind that the G offers a hell of a lot more for the dollar and performs damn near as well, the 3-Series is somewhat better at the limit, so it wins.  Each of these tests is a perfectly acceptable result in isolation, but they're damn hard to reconcile with each other.

It seems to me that, regardless of what C&D pits the 3-Series against, they choose the characteristics where the 3-Series beat the competition and focus on those, dismissing the other categories as irrelevant.  The Bimmer is faster on the track?  This month, C&D loves track toys.  The Bimmer offers a more pleasant ride quality?  This month, C&D is all about pleasant commutes.  Etc.  I'd much rather see a magazine decide that certain characteristics outweigh others in its mind, and apply those same criteria regardless of the contestants.

Offline rrocket

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Re: Car and Driver: GT-R vs 911 Turbo vs M3
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2008, 11:15:25 pm »
In R&T they chose the C63 AMG as their winner this month....

vdk

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Re: Car and Driver: GT-R vs 911 Turbo vs M3
« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2008, 11:55:00 pm »
To each his own I guess..

It's hard to ignore those numbers pulled by the GT-R though... really hard

Mitlov

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Re: Car and Driver: GT-R vs 911 Turbo vs M3
« Reply #13 on: June 04, 2008, 12:05:56 am »
In R&T they chose the C63 AMG as their winner this month....

When I'm talking about bias, I'm talking specifically about C&D.  I don't think the automotive media as a whole is biased.

R&T does have the worst writing of any magazine I've read, though, with MT a close second.  Automobile doesn't have as many tests as the "big three" American magazines (C&D, MT, R&T), but they write better than any of them.

Offline rrocket

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Re: Car and Driver: GT-R vs 911 Turbo vs M3
« Reply #14 on: June 04, 2008, 12:09:20 am »
^^I like Ezra Dyer from Automobile...

Mitlov

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Re: Car and Driver: GT-R vs 911 Turbo vs M3
« Reply #15 on: June 04, 2008, 03:24:22 am »
Speaking of magazines we like, I've just gotten into some of the British ones.  Most of their tests are posted online.  I particularly like Car Magazine, though Evo is good fun.

http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/
http://www.evo.co.uk/

They seem to have a very different take on some of the same cars.  For example, they're much more negative about the new A4/A5 than American mags (which have really liked it) and much more positive about the new C-Class (which has been thoroughly dragged through the dirt by US mags).  Anyway, a different perspective is always nice to add to the mix.

Offline rrocket

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Re: Car and Driver: GT-R vs 911 Turbo vs M3
« Reply #16 on: June 04, 2008, 04:24:39 am »
^^Yea...those are good mags.


Have you seen this new one on your newstands yet?? Called "0-60". Nice format..different photography.  It's fresh.

http://www.0-60mag.com/

Offline tenpenny

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Re: Car and Driver: GT-R vs 911 Turbo vs M3
« Reply #17 on: June 04, 2008, 10:41:13 am »
I used to have every issue of Automobile, starting with the first one.  I really thought that Davis and Lindamood set the bar nice and high for automotive writing - interesting, well edited, the whole shebang.


Offline evil_twin

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Re: Car and Driver: GT-R vs 911 Turbo vs M3
« Reply #18 on: June 04, 2008, 03:33:11 pm »
Yes, I agree with most of the above posts.  I "personally" would choose the 3-series against it's closest competitors (G35, etc).  And I "personally" would choose the M3 over the C63, RS4, etc...

But I sure wouldn't choose the M3 over the GT-R for a zip around the track.  C&D can proclaim they love BMW all they want in test drives and 'sensible' comparison tests....but this one is rather foul.


Offline safristi

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Re: Car and Driver: GT-R vs 911 Turbo vs M3
« Reply #19 on: June 04, 2008, 03:45:45 pm »
"the whole shebang!!!". :o 8).......neither LindaMOOD nor Davis  would get me inta a 4 way wif Max Moseley(whom "BUY" the way is still Fia Chief!!! WDF!!!")...but it is the best written AUTOMOBILE mag Rag out there..........