Topic: 2009 JETTA TDI 30/41 mpg

[vdk]

Weight does play a huge factor here.

Honda worked hard to get the Fit under the green rebate program the gvt had.
Toyota had the Yaris included in the program.

Both cars have very very similar engines, the main difference is weight.

Plus, diesels feel more powerful in real life than any gasoline engine. Like for me personally, when I drove the '06 Jetta TDI for the first time, I was stunned. That little diesel pulled like a pro, it was really amazing. Gasoline engines are picky, you gotta be in between 4000-5000rpm to get the max outta the engine. Diesels? 1500-4500 brute force. They're just more drivable in everyday life. You can go from 30-130 in 3rd . And those 240lb-ft torque move the car with attitude.

I still think one could get the TDI into low 5s  high 4s on the highway w/o a sweat.

[rrocket]

Mitlov..I went over this before.  The Jetta is not THAT much bigger than the Echo.  The only interiror dimensions that are larger are front and rear shoulder room. That's it IIRC.  Echo has more headroom, same legroom front and rear.  Yea..the Jetta IS larger...but it's not some huge car compared to the Echo (though it does weigh substantially more because of the larger wheelbase and whatnot).  Agreed..TQ is VERY nice.  But 41MPG just isn't impressive to me.  It's really not.

I WANT to love this diesel....but I don't...

Even when this engine (or similar diesel) was in a Golf it wasn't that much better......


Our "old" Jetta and Golf from years ago with the 1.9 got better mileage than these new one.......

5.5L/100km city 4.4L/100km highway.  And that was 10 years ago, and the mileage was virtually identical for either car...Golf or Jetta...

[Mitlov]

Another factor to consider--clean diesels need extra emissions systems, which hurt fuel economy compared to dirty diesels.  MB's urea injection is better for fuel economy than VW's clean diesel system, while still being clean, but it adds extra cost and hassle to keep the urea filled.

So comparing the fuel economy of a clean diesel and a dirty diesel isn't totally apples to apples either.

[Mitlov]

Mitlov..I went over this before.  The Jetta is not THAT much bigger than the Echo.  The only interiror dimensions that are larger are front and rear shoulder room. That's it IIRC. 

In my experience, interior space ratings are very flawed.  The Frontier is much bigger inside than the Tacoma on paper but much smaller in person, for example.  I haven't been inside Echos, but I've been outside them a lot, and I'm just not picturing the interior space as being comparable.

[rrocket]

We'll agree to disagree, as we most often do.  I'm not impressed by 41MPG, you are.  Fine by me.

[vdk]

Drive an Echo at 140 on the highway and then a Jetta. The Jetta feels more solid and weight has a lot to do with that.
Gas engines are very efficient if they're small and don't have too much power/torque. Diesels are more fuel efficient/hp

I'm not really impressed by 41MPG either, but it's pretty good for North America.

In euroland they have a combined ~42MPG for the Jetta with the 2.0TDI....

[Mitlov]

We'll agree to disagree, as we most often do.  I'm not impressed by 41MPG, you are.  Fine by me.

Please do not misstate my position.  I am not impressed by 41 mpg period.  I am impressed by 41 mpg in this particular car.  I would not be impressed by 41 mpg in a smaller, less substantial-feeling, slower, less environmentally-friendly diesel.

[rrocket]

Well supposedly the new Legacy can achieve 50MPG..and it has 30+ more TQ than the VW unit....(fingers crossed)

[Mitlov]

Well supposedly the new Legacy can achieve 50MPG..and it has 30+ more TQ than the VW unit....(fingers crossed)

And is that with the Euro combined cycle test (or whatever it's called), which is far more optimistic that the US EPA test we're talking about here?

[vdk]

This looks more and more like a late night VW - Toyota gang war.... 

[rrocket]

I don't think Toyota has anything to do with this one...no diesels....They've put their money into batteries...

[Mitlov]

This looks more and more like a late night VW - Toyota gang war.... 

If this was a "war" like we often see on CTC, would I have agreed in my first post in the thread that buying a Corolla 1.8L is a far better financial decision than buying a Jetta TDI?  Would I have been so careful to emphasize that while I subjectively prefer that "Teutonic" feel, it doesn't make a car objectively better in any way?  I give credit where it is due, and Toyota certainly deserves plenty of credit.

[Vil]

Keep in mind that the dissapointing (to some) EPA ratings for the new TDI are mainly due to the new EPA 5-cylcle test method.  The EPA has said that it may underestimate real world diesel fuel economy by as much as 18%.  For those comparing these numbers to ones from European tests, note that the same TDI engine in the Jetta achieves 5.5 L/100km (43 mpg US) combined on the European cycle in the heavier Audi A4.  That's a 10 mpg spread due soley to differences in test methodologies.   

[pdude]

Ok,
I've done a little more research since I started this thread, TDI Club is a very informative forum on this.
The Engine may be the same as in Europe, but the emission control system is not.  There are two components one of which is the DPF (Diesel Particulate Filter), apparently this filter must be charged/recharged/cleaned whatever the actual engineering process is, the problem is that in Europe this process is user dependent, something that would not be allowed in 50 States, including Canada.  I think the lower then expected fuel efficiently could be due to this 'new' system VW had to develop.  There is a wealth of detailed info on this, which is way above my interest, but the bottom line is the true ratings might be better.

I will still look a this car when it's available for sale...  Echo, Fit, Prius is not an option, perhaps a Civic   

[Mitlov]

I wanted to return to one point...has biodiesel taken off at all in Canada?  Just curious?  I thought it might not have, because if I recall correctly, biodiesel makes a diesel engine even harder to start in far-below-freezing temperatures than normal diesel fuel does.

To contrast, here is a map of SeQuential fueling stations in Oregon.  Keep in mind that this is just ONE of several brand names marketing biodiesel here:



Indeed, within Portland city limits, ALL diesel pumps dispense 5% biodiesel.

http://www.pdxbiodiesel.org/

[Vil]

Ok,
I've done a little more research since I started this thread, TDI Club is a very informative forum on this.
The Engine may be the same as in Europe, but the emission control system is not.  There are two components one of which is the DPF (Diesel Particulate Filter), apparently this filter must be charged/recharged/cleaned whatever the actual engineering process is, the problem is that in Europe this process is user dependent, something that would not be allowed in 50 States, including Canada. 

New DPFs are not user-dependent.  The ones you are talking about were the early retro-fit DPFs that some automakers offered in Europe before they became standard equipment.

[Vil]

I wanted to return to one point...has biodiesel taken off at all in Canada? 

No.  Mainly due to the fact that, in Canada, biodiesel isn't subsided to the level it is in the US.  Its not as profitable here.

B5 is not a problem in winter.  Biodiesel is more prone to gelling but only when dealing with high blends (B50 and above).  The reason manufacturers currently won't warranty blend above B5 is due to the lack of North American fuel standards (for B20 for example).

[Mitlov]

I wanted to return to one point...has biodiesel taken off at all in Canada? 

No.  Mainly due to the fact that, in Canada, biodiesel isn't subsided to the level it is in the US.  Its not as profitable here.

That's too bad.  I think that this is a perfect situation for a subsidy:

(1)  Alternative fuel cars will never succeed with market forces alone, because the initial costs to consumers are very high before economies of scale kick in.

(2)  Biodiesel is good for society as a whole, not just the individual owner, because it burns cleaner than traditional diesel and also reduces foreign oil dependence.

And it's not unprecedented.  Doesn't Europe use a taxation system that makes diesel more affordable, and petrol less affordable, than what market forces alone would do?

[Vil]

(2)  Biodiesel is good for society as a whole, not just the individual owner, because it burns cleaner than traditional diesel and also reduces foreign oil dependence.

"Foreign oil" dependance is a crock. Oil is a worldwide comodity. Its the same price regardless where it comes from. Canada has more oil than it needs and the eastern provinces still import oil from foreign countries because its cheaper than piping it from Alberta.

[Mitlov]

(2)  Biodiesel is good for society as a whole, not just the individual owner, because it burns cleaner than traditional diesel and also reduces foreign oil dependence.

"Foreign oil" dependance is a crock. Oil is a worldwide comodity. Its the same price regardless where it comes from. Canada has more oil than it needs and the eastern provinces still import oil from foreign countries because its cheaper than piping it from Alberta.

(1)  Perhaps Canada has enough oil to support its domestic needs, but the US (where I live) does not.  We do, however, have an overabundance of farm land.

(2)  "Reducing dependence on foreign oil" isn't so much an economic thing as a political and international relations thing.  It stems from a desire not to save money, but to distance oneself from certain governments (primarily Saudi Arabia).  Most Americans deeply distrust the Saudi government, but as a practical matter, our economy right now would collapse without Saudi oil.