Topic: First Track Test: Nissan GT-R CRUSHES Z06 and Porsche 911 TT

[Jaeger]

imo porsche are making themselves look very silly over all of this and what is worse they have now totally pumped up nissan's reputation by making a public statement.  talk about great publicity for nissan. 

Agreed - Porsche have made themselves look foolish and given Nissan instant validation and a ton of free publicity.  You'd have to be kind of obtuse to miss the irony here. 1) Nissan goes out and buys themselves some 911 Turbos as it sets this car as the developmental performance benchmark for the GT-R.  2) The production GT-R spanks the 911 Turbo quite handily and hangs with the vaunted GT3. 3) Porsche goes out and buys themselves some GT-Rs..... 

what are they going to say when the new nsx is faster than the top 911? 

Unless they are very slow learners - or else hire drederick as director of marketing - the LAST thing they will say is "THEY CHEATED!"

 does anyone think porsche will ever phase out the 911 and make the cayman, which is a proper mid engine layout, their top car? 

Never, ever, ever going to happen.  Ever.

Jaeger

[The Mighty Duck]

what are they going to say when the new nsx is faster than the top 911?   does anyone think porsche will ever phase out the 911 and make the cayman, which is a proper mid engine layout, their top car? 

Porsche is a bit of a bind if they continue to place the 911 at the top of their range.  I'm no engineer, but I think the rear-engine design of that car means the best they can ever hope for is a smallish flat six and ~500 horsepower.

If Porsche really wants to compete with some of the ludicrously fast cars, they need to reintroduce the Carrera GT, but price is more reasonably...

[tpl]

wasn't there a monster flat engine in the 917K many years ago,  A flat 12  developing  many many horsepower.... so a 911 with an extended tail ?   

here it is   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche_917

I wonder if they still have the tooling for that engine and if it would be able to be emision controlled to todays specifications...

Someone managed to register one for road us in some southern state IIRc it was in R&T


  see what you missed by being a young'un  Demo 

[The Mighty Duck]

   Neat!

Actually, the more I think about it, some people have managed to cram 350s into the back of 911s, so a 911 with a big engine is probably possible.  Not sure how they handle, but you can shoehorn one in there, anyway...

[DriverJeff]

Big engine isn't necessary.  500 hp out of a turboed flat-six is plenty.  Now... add much lightness and they're laughing. 

Before criticizing Porsche too much, do keep in mind that it wasn't an official media release that went out accusing Nissan of 'cheating' was it?  Wasn't it simply a head engineer / development chief at Porsche that was quoted as questioning how it was possible for Nissan to achieve such results?  Seems fair enough to me to ask when Porsche's test drivers likely know the 'ring as well as anyone but couldn't come close to replicating the same numbers. 

[rrocket]

Big engine isn't necessary.  500 hp out of a turboed flat-six is plenty. 

Built Subie STi flat four engines are making 500WHP rather easily.  No reason a flat six can't make similar power easy....


They've just added Direct Injection to the Cayman and it picket up 25HP and 25 TQ.  New numbers are 320 HP and 275 TQ (old numbers of 295HP and 251 TQ)  Plus it gets a LSD now.  So the performance will be very, very close to a 911.

[safristi]

 Hmmm ...thinkin.?.....K_man...Cayman.....K Car....Viper V10....Mmmmm i'm onta something 'ere.......... wot should i calls IT...

  the ViCK's Vaporiser........Hmmm catchy but.......the KYJellymobile....Candyasscayman....
any OTHERS?

[DriverJeff]

as for the statement,  a head engineer should know better than to shoot his mouth off like that.  he is in a position of authority at porsche and he is suggesting that a major manufacturer is cheating or lying.    you just don't do that. 

C'mon, Kev, he's only an engineer... if he was smarter with communications, he'd be in marketing. 

[The Mighty Duck]

Built Subie STi flat four engines are making 500WHP rather easily.  No reason a flat six can't make similar power easy....

Yes, it's technically possible.  But there's also reasons manufacturers generally don't do it.  Reliability and performance are two of them.  I recall reviews of the EVO FQ400 that said, "yeah it has loads of power, but it's still a 2L four pot, so the power band sucks".  I'm skeptical of how good those 500WHP Subies are as daily drivers...

Likewise, while I know there are 1000 hp EVOs that are pretty reliable, how reliable would they be as dealer-sold street cars, without a meticulous, knowledgeable owner?  Just because something is technically possible does not mean it would fly in a production car.

You are right in that Porsche could likely get 500+++ HP out of the flat six in the 911.  But my gut says a 5XX HP V8 or V10 would give a better powerband and better reliability.

For example, the Ultimate Aero produces 1000+ HP out of a V8 (as do many other, non-production cars).  But I'm sure Bugatti had it's reasons for using a W16 and four turbos to get 1000 hp.

[rrocket]

Built Subie STi flat four engines are making 500WHP rather easily.  No reason a flat six can't make similar power easy....

Yes, it's technically possible.  But there's also reasons manufacturers generally don't do it.  Reliability and performance are two of them.  I recall reviews of the EVO FQ400 that said, "yeah it has loads of power, but it's still a 2L four pot, so the power band sucks".  I'm skeptical of how good those 500WHP Subies are as daily drivers...

Likewise, while I know there are 1000 hp EVOs that are pretty reliable, how reliable would they be as dealer-sold street cars, without a meticulous, knowledgeable owner?  Just because something is technically possible does not mean it would fly in a production car.

You are right in that Porsche could likely get 500+++ HP out of the flat six in the 911.  But my gut says a 5XX HP V8 or V10 would give a better powerband and better reliability.

For example, the Ultimate Aero produces 1000+ HP out of a V8 (as do many other, non-production cars).  But I'm sure Bugatti had it's reasons for using a W16 and four turbos to get 1000 hp.

I said a BUILT flat four.  Cosworth flat fours engines (or AR Fabrication, Tomei, etc..) are dead reliable.  They just use better pistons and rods.  500 RELIABLE AWHP is a joke on these.  Sure they cost $$, but if you can afford a Porsche, you can afford $5K extra in stout engine mods.

A stock Supra block/pistons/head is good to nearly 900HP and a built block is 1500+.  Both are reliable for daily use.  I have no reason to doubt a properly built Porsche engine would make 500 RWHP easily.  Especially with the new twin scroll, extended tip turbo (ETT), or variable nozzle turbo you can have great boost curves.

Triple ball bearing turbos are REALLY reducing spool time too.....

 

[The Mighty Duck]

^ Porsche already has a 520 bhp flat six, btw.

I'm still interested in the reasoning behind many companies using bigger engines to achieve power instead of bigger turbos.  That suggests to me that there is some technical or logical reason for it...  or are they just cheaper to produce?

[Mitlov]

^ Porsche already has a 520 bhp flat six, btw.

I'm still interested in the reasoning behind many companies using bigger engines to achieve power instead of bigger turbos.  That suggests to me that there is some technical or logical reason for it...  or are they just cheaper to produce?

User-friendly powerbands?  Which do you think has a more pleasant powerband for day-to-day driving: a 400hp Chevy small block or a 400hp 2.0L turbo four from a European EVO?  Yes, the latter is much lighter, but it's also miserable to live with.

[The Mighty Duck]

User-friendly powerbands?  Which do you think has a more pleasant powerband for day-to-day driving: a 400hp Chevy small block or a 400hp 2.0L turbo four from a European EVO?  Yes, the latter is much lighter, but it's also miserable to live with.

Yeah...  I mentioned that above, too.

[Mitlov]

User-friendly powerbands?  Which do you think has a more pleasant powerband for day-to-day driving: a 400hp Chevy small block or a 400hp 2.0L turbo four from a European EVO?  Yes, the latter is much lighter, but it's also miserable to live with.

Yeah...  I mentioned that above, too.

I know.  I was confused why you asked the question when you had already provided a pretty darned good answer.   In retrospect, I guess it was a rhetorical question, no?

[drederick]

No offence to anyone, but why bother reading what I write?

Jaeger - is it just me or did this thread start off with a GTR comparison and then morph into the Porsche accusation because someone else posted porsches accusation here? Didn't I try and start a new thread and YOU in fact said it was already posted? so what gives with this:
"So instead of addressing the comparison test that was the subject of this thread - showing that the GT-R positively smoked the Z06 - he is determined instead to persist in establishing that Nissan cheated at the 'Ring. "

ummm yeah Jaeger nice one - I did try and start a new thread. Thanks for coming out ha ha ha ha Jaeger

As for:
"All he's got to go on is the video, which is why he refers to it again, and again, and again, and again and.... I've lost count, but I'm not nearly there yet.  "

I didn't create this video. Did you? oh wait - Nissan created this video. Nissan created this video to do what? ummm sell cars. That is the problem. Not that it isn't a fast car - IT IS! They are using the video as a marketing tool and claiming it is stock stock stock when it is shown doing things that aren't capable by a stock car.

Check out this:
http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=31&article_id=7078

Look at how 'close' to stock this Mines car is that makes 550hp....... they changed the exhaust and ecu. Same turbos same engine same intake same everything else. For Nissan to get well over 480hp would simply be an ECU flash.

Could Nissan have meant that the car was stock HARDWARE wise but that the software was altered? Or maybe it wasn't altered at all.

Given that to unleash the ultimate performance of the GTR (to create the accel numbers that put it right up there with the fastest cars in the world)you have to use the LC that essentially voids your warranty - what other secrets are stored within the GTR's software?

My personal 'thought' on this is that the GTR was stock (yes Mitlov the gearing was stock) tires included but that they never specified what gas they used. I really think this car will go CRAZY when you feed it the right octane and set it to the right 'settings' - or maybe it is smart enough to take advanatge of the octane all by itself?

As a side note, I thought it was odd when I read the first releases about the ZR1 doing its time when they said it was stock right down to a tank with pump gas in it - I can't find the direct Chev link - tried but couldn't but here is a link that says the same:
http://www.leftlanenews.com/z-before-g-chevrolet-corvette-zr1-clips-the-nissan-gt-rs-nurburgring-lap-time.html
maybe they were trying to say something.................

Don't bother to reply. No matter if I am right or wrong Nissan has accomplished everything they wanted to do - make lots of hype and sell their cars.

[Mitlov]

EDIT:  Post removed because the post to which this responded was removed.

[UmroAyyar]

Do click on the link below to Edmunds Inside Line entry, photos and videos after the link.

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=133467#3

Still Not Convinced? Nissan Reveals Second GT-R 'Ring Video
Date posted: 10-10-2008

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TOKYO — After officially refuting claims from Porsche that cheating was involved during Nissan's tests of the GT-R at the Nürburgring earlier this year, Nissan has further proved its point by revealing a second video of the iconic sports car in action.

The time of 7 minutes and 29 seconds was disputed by Porsche engineers, who insisted that the vehicle must have been equipped with special tires after only managing 25-second-slower lap times when they tested it.



The video clearly shows Nissan's chief test driver Tochio Suzuki making the 7-minute, 29-second lap, and the Japanese automaker has even offered images of the actual tires used in the test.

Inside Line says: Even the biggest GT-R skeptics can't deny the cold, hard facts now presented by Nissan. — Mike Lysaght, Correspondent

[Jaeger]

No offence to anyone, but why bother reading what I write?

An excellent question indeed.

Jaeger