Topic: First Track Test: Nissan GT-R CRUSHES Z06 and Porsche 911 TT

[drederick]

Rrocket - Yes, I am a 'GM Slappy', but first and foremost I am a 'car slappy' - always have been and always will be. The GTR is an awesome car no doubt about that - but the record run video shows it doing something well beyond what you could expect from that vehicle - keeping up past 140mph with two 600 plus horsepower vehicles for 23 seconds! Lets take the corner out of the equation to make it even more obvious - as there shouldn't be much wheel spin past 140 mph, right? So how again does that tremendous awd system help it at 140 mph going straight ahead?

You own a very fast car - does it make sense to you?

Mitlov - http://www.caranddriver.com/buying_guide/nissan/gt_r/2009_nissan_gt_r/2009_nissan_gt_r_road_test+type-reviews_by_make+mode-collection+id-238.html go there and then click on Spec Sheet. To the best of my knowledge the gearing that is shown on this spec sheet is inline with what the GTR currently has. My CONCERN is that your earlier explination was a 20 mph 'jump' for the GTR to explain away its acceleration down the straightaway based on nothing at all. Nissan only gave us the shifts to indicate speeds and that seems to be pretty accurate as an indicator. Just look at bridge 1 in the GTR and the Zr1:

1st bridge
GTR 6:46                                  ZR1 6:42

The GTR does the 5th - 6th shift 2 seconds later at 6:48 at 152 mph. So given how fast 'this' GTR accelerates 2 seconds would be approx 8.5mph (based on the GTR gaining 30mph in 7 seconds which occured between the 4th-5th shift and the 5th to 6th shifts) so it was going about 143.5 mph

The ZR1 at 6:42 is going 144 mph.

And then 23 seconds later both of the cars at the same place. Same with the Dodge Viper ACR.

Okay, gotcha.  You were looking at the May 2008 preproduction car.  A chart with the performance numbers for the five GT-Rs that C&D tested is available on the right side of this page:

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/columns/c_d_staff/larry_webster/what_is_the_gt_r_s_real_horsepower_column  (click on "performance test comparison")

Here's my problem.  The May preproduction car had the same horsepower as the production car, but it wasn't identical in every way.  Most notably, whereas the 0-60 and 0-100 times were almost identical to the production car, the 0-130 time was remarkably shorter (12.1 seconds for the preproduction GT-R versus 13.7 and 14.0 for the two production cars).  Similar acceleration for 0-60 and 0-100, but significantly better acceleration for 0-130, screams to me that the May preproduction GT-R had shorter gearing in the highest few gears.

So the top-speeds-per-gear for the top few gears from the May preproduction GT-R are almost certainly lower than they are for the production GT-R.  Your analysis that the GT-R must have been a ringer because it was going too fast in each gear, while certainly a good argument, is based off of the wrong set of statistics.

So, let's re-cap:

(1)  You first argued that the Nurburgring GT-R had to have been a ringer because it was accelerating just as fast as the more-powerful-and-lighter ZR-1 on a straightaway.  I showed that the GT-R entered the straightaway going faster, by noting that it traveled the distance from the last inside shoulder strip to the first bridge in six seconds to the Vette's seven.  Thus, the GT-R was accelerating more slowly if the two cars covered the distance between the two bridges in the same time. 

(2)  You then advanced a new argument, saying that the Nurburgring GT-R couldn't be a production GT-R because it was going too fast in 4th and 5th gears to be a production GT-R.  Problem is, you used performance numbers from a preproduction GT-R with lower gearing in the higher gears than the production GT-R has.

Do you have any other arguments that the Nurburgring GT-R was a ringer?  Because I don't think there's ANY evidence that it was.

I have to admit I am a bit suprised, Mitlov, that you didn't take the time to do even a simple search to check the gearing you think is different. Look at the gearing quoted in the caranddriver link provided earlier. Then goto this official GTR site:
http://www.gtrnissan.com/index.en.us.html?site=nissanusa&area=usaglobal_header#

Gearing is the same. Production = Preproduction.

So the top-speeds-per-gear for the top few gears from the May preproduction GT-R are almost certainly IDENTICAL to the production GT-R.  MY analysis that the GT-R must have been a ringer because it was going too fast in each gear, while certainly a GREAT (LOL) argument, is based off of the CORRECT set of statistics.

So, let's re-cap:
1) I just checked the two videos and I got the opposite numbers than you did:
end of last inside strip time
ZR1       GTR
6:36      6:39

bridge 1 time
6:42      6:46

The ZR1 seema to have done it in 6 seconds versus 7 for the GTR.

That inside strip is hard to see - try the white markers you can see thru the winshield at 6:27 in the vette. From that marker to the 1st bridge:
                vette     gtr
white          6:28     6:30
marker

1st bridge    6:42     6:46

Once again the Vette has a clear lead thru the turn and onto the straightaway at 14 seconds versus 16.

Thus the GTR was at least keeping up with the Vette - if not accelerating faster because it WAS slower around that turn coming onto the straightaway.

2) gearing is the same between production and preproduction.

I think you hit the nail on the head when you discuss what your 'problem' is about how much faster the preproduction cars, like the one in the GTR video, were..... and considering it has the same gearing then what else could it be?

[rrocket]

As I said before (and I have a very fast car) 50-60HP is not a huge difference between cars once you are at that level of performance.  Because when all said and done, that's about the difference between the ZR-1 and the standard GT-R.  Factor in the AWD and tremendous stability and I can see why the cars run somewhat similar times.

As far as gearing...it makes a HUGE difference.  For example, I've done some playing around with gearing on my car.  I had 3.92 gears in my car.  It would trap in the 1/4 mile around 130-132 MPH.  I then went to 4.27 gears and my trap speed dropped to around 119-121 MPH.  Pretty significant.  However, through the 1/4 mile that change in gearing made the car quicker by nearly 1/2 second...which is a TON in the quarter mile.

So add in the "mere" 50-60 RWHP difference, the amazing AWD and the gearing differences and I can see the GT-R be able to, at times, "hang" with the ZR-1.  Hang with doesn't mean beat FWIW.

I don't think the GT-R is a ringer.  The ZR-1 is faster....and even a few seconds at race pace is a tremendous amount...

I'm not sure why you're arguing this anyways.  ZR-1 is faster than regular GT-R.  No surprise there.  Geez....even when the GM is faster you guys STILL and moan...

[drederick]

As I said before (and I have a very fast car) 50-60HP is not a huge difference between cars once you are at that level of performance.  Because when all said and done, that's about the difference between the ZR-1 and the standard GT-R.  Factor in the AWD and tremendous stability and I can see why the cars run somewhat similar times.

As far as gearing...it makes a HUGE difference.  For example, I've done some playing around with gearing on my car.  I had 3.92 gears in my car.  It would trap in the 1/4 mile around 130-132 MPH.  I then went to 4.27 gears and my trap speed dropped to around 119-121 MPH.  Pretty significant.  However, through the 1/4 mile that change in gearing made the car quicker by nearly 1/2 second...which is a TON in the quarter mile.

So add in the "mere" 50-60 RWHP difference, the amazing AWD and the gearing differences and I can see the GT-R be able to, at times, "hang" with the ZR-1.  Hang with doesn't mean beat FWIW.

I don't think the GT-R is a ringer.  The ZR-1 is faster....and even a few seconds at race pace is a tremendous amount...

I'm not sure why you're arguing this anyways.  ZR-1 is faster than regular GT-R.  No surprise there.  Geez....even when the GM is faster you guys STILL and moan...

Lets say it is 50-60 hp less and the GTR has 530-540 hp. That STILL should not allow it to keep up with the ZR1 from a 140+mph roll on race for 23 straight seconds,going perfectly straight, right? yet it did in Nissan's video. That is the point. The ZR1 puts that down to the wheels not the crank.

So if it isn't a ringer car, what should it be called?

Maybe you can help me with this one question: in one of this months car mags (saw it for a couple of minutes at lunch today) they test a stock GTR and a modified GTR. The modified one is said to make about 550 hp. Does that mean that the company that modifies it actually is making over 600hp but intentionally lowers the number to keep up nissan's lie? That seems a little pointless because anyone with half an understanding in marketing knows that when it comes to speed 600 is better than 550 and they are in the market to sell speed!

P.S. the modified one trapped at 127 mph if memory serves me well - close to but still slower than a ZR1..... so maybe the GTR in the ring video had 600 plus hp?

[barrie1]

I haven't seen any GM guys whineing about the Vette at all but the only real whineing in this article is from the other side as they have been accused of something by porsche which is Cheating on the movie clip to some degree. Vette owners with these new cars have NO reason to whine at all.  They are faster and there's no doubt about it. I'll stick to building Chevies as they are the best and cheapest ones to build for speed. 

[rrocket]

As I said before (and I have a very fast car) 50-60HP is not a huge difference between cars once you are at that level of performance.  Because when all said and done, that's about the difference between the ZR-1 and the standard GT-R.  Factor in the AWD and tremendous stability and I can see why the cars run somewhat similar times.

As far as gearing...it makes a HUGE difference.  For example, I've done some playing around with gearing on my car.  I had 3.92 gears in my car.  It would trap in the 1/4 mile around 130-132 MPH.  I then went to 4.27 gears and my trap speed dropped to around 119-121 MPH.  Pretty significant.  However, through the 1/4 mile that change in gearing made the car quicker by nearly 1/2 second...which is a TON in the quarter mile.

So add in the "mere" 50-60 RWHP difference, the amazing AWD and the gearing differences and I can see the GT-R be able to, at times, "hang" with the ZR-1.  Hang with doesn't mean beat FWIW.

I don't think the GT-R is a ringer.  The ZR-1 is faster....and even a few seconds at race pace is a tremendous amount...

I'm not sure why you're arguing this anyways.  ZR-1 is faster than regular GT-R.  No surprise there.  Geez....even when the GM is faster you guys STILL and moan...

Lets say it is 50-60 hp less and the GTR has 530-540 hp. That STILL should not allow it to keep up with the ZR1 from a 140+mph roll on race for 23 straight seconds,going perfectly straight, right? yet it did in Nissan's video. That is the point. The ZR1 puts that down to the wheels not the crank.

So if it isn't a ringer car, what should it be called?

Maybe you can help me with this one question: in one of this months car mags (saw it for a couple of minutes at lunch today) they test a stock GTR and a modified GTR. The modified one is said to make about 550 hp. Does that mean that the company that modifies it actually is making over 600hp but intentionally lowers the number to keep up nissan's lie? That seems a little pointless because anyone with half an understanding in marketing knows that when it comes to speed 600 is better than 550 and they are in the market to sell speed!

P.S. the modified one trapped at 127 mph if memory serves me well - close to but still slower than a ZR1..... so maybe the GTR in the ring video had 600 plus hp?

How do you know the ZR-1 is putting down the power it's supposed to in that vid?  Maybe it's LESS.  I mean...you wanna accuse Nissan of a "ringer"?  Let's accuse GM of having a slightly tired test mule.  Who knows...maybe the Vette (since it's a pre-proddy unit in the vids since production hadn't even begun for those cars at the point the video was made) has had the crap kicked out of it since it's a development car?  Who knows....maybe they have the boost turned down some because of overheating. (I read a blurb in a magazine that said basically this engine is at it's limits for boost with the current set-up. Any more boost and the car will overheat).  So who knows....

How about this...top end, the ZR-1 travels 13 feet/second quicker than the GT-R.  Which isn't alot.  Assume the GT-R gets on the throttle after a corner before the ZR-1 can.  It would take the ZR-1 a bit of time to recoup that to take advantage of the bigger top end pull of it's engine.  If they started a drag race at top speed, after 23 seconds the ZR-1 would only be ahead fewer than 100 meters in PERFECT CONDITIONS.  Since they didn't start at top speed, the earlier on throttle for GT-R, "better" gearing for the GT-R, less HP differential than expected to the wheels, etc..add all of those things up and it would appear that the GT-R can "hang" with the ZR-1 in this particular track condition. Even though, ultimately at the end of the lap the GT-R is slower.

Again...I still don't see WTF you care anyways...the ZR-1 is faster on paper....and in that video.  What's the issue???

[The Mighty Duck]

Lets say it is 50-60 hp less and the GTR has 530-540 hp. That STILL should not allow it to keep up with the ZR1 from a 140+mph roll on race for 23 straight seconds,going perfectly straight, right? yet it did in Nissan's video. That is the point. The ZR1 puts that down to the wheels not the crank.

So if it isn't a ringer car, what should it be called?

Maybe you can help me with this one question: in one of this months car mags (saw it for a couple of minutes at lunch today) they test a stock GTR and a modified GTR. The modified one is said to make about 550 hp. Does that mean that the company that modifies it actually is making over 600hp but intentionally lowers the number to keep up nissan's lie? That seems a little pointless because anyone with half an understanding in marketing knows that when it comes to speed 600 is better than 550 and they are in the market to sell speed!

You place too much emphasis on horsepower.  There are a lot of factors at work on a race track, but you seem to blithely ignore all of them except horsepower.  Others have done a pretty good of trying to explain some of those other factors, apparently to no end...

And FWIW, the tuning company was probably advertising WHP.  550 WHP is more like 650 hp at the crank, assuming a 15% drive train loss (and in an AWD car, drive train loss is probably more like 20%).

[Mitlov]

Drederick:

Regarding the gearing:

Do you think that Car & Driver puts the cars they test up on a mount and actually physically examines the gearbox?  Or do you think that the gear ratios chart is just a repetition of information they obtained from the manufacturer?  Listen, we already know that Nissan was just handing magazines the same set of specs for every preproduction car, even though they were monkeying with the details from preproduction unit to preproduction unit--that's why there's such a discrepancy in the horsepower ratings of preproduction cars.  If Nissan didn't spell out the differences regarding horsepower, why would they spell out the differences in gearing?

The fact is, the production GT-R and the May preproduction GT-R had identical horsepower, identical 0-60 times, identical 0-100 times,  but the preproduction one gets to 130 two seconds faster, you tell me how that happens without a difference in gearing in the upper gears.

And even if it's not specifically the gearing that's different, the May preproduction GT-R is clearly not identical to the production GT-R, given the vast difference in 0-130 times.  So you just can't use shift points from that preproduction car and assume they're the same on the production car.  There is some sort of significant difference between those two cars.

Regarding the video:

I definitely see a GT-R that's going faster than the ZR-1 entering the straight.  You don't.  In fact, you see that the GT-R travels the distance between the last inside strip and the first bridge in LESS time than the ZR-1.  I see the exact opposite looking at those same videos.  We appear to be at an impasse.

Frankly, I don't see this going anywhere more.  I've pointed out everything I can and you're absolutely not budging.  I'm no Nissan fanboy or Japanese car fanboy.  In fact, if anything, I spend a big chunk of my time here defending German and American cars against Japanese car enthusiasts like rrocket.  But when it comes to Porsche fans and Corvette fans accusing Nissan of using a ringer at the Nurburgring...I just don't see it.

[safristi]

...... .....NURBURGRINGER or NOBUGGERINER..............

[wing]

Fly both cars out there, me and dredrick, I'll take the GT-R he can take the ZR-1 first one around takes crown of fastest car

[drederick]

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/showthread.php?t=2145434
3 base line runs - best being 549.9 rwhp

Pretty good numbers.

As the for the Vette being a slightly tired test mule - maybe. But, the Dodge Viper ACR - a car that is VERY similar in performance in the video Dodge released accelerated the same as the vette. So both of those cars were tired test mules? As for boost being turned down - i heard the same overheating information - that if you wanted more power out of it that you would need better cooling - but it had/has no issues with its rated SAE output.

Lets say your calculations are correct (and I am not sure if they are). The video still doesn't show it. It shows the less powerful GTR staying right with the ZR1 in acceleration above 140mph. It shows it staying right with the Dodge Viper ACR as well above 140mph. As far as earlier on throttle, if you look at the times thru the corner leading upto the first bridge the ZR1 is actually faster over that time by a wide margin - 4 seconds. But the Vette gains NO ground after that on a 23 second straightaway.

Better gearing for the GTR - do you happen to know the gearing of the ZR1?
Less HP differential to the wheels? ringer GTR?
It doesn't appear to hand with the ZR1 and ACR it DOES hang with them.

The reason it matters is because any manufacturer can use such times as a marketing tool - which nissan has done - and cheat and get a better result than what could be obtained by a production car. What is to stop Mitusbishi lets say from making a 1000 hp lancer and running a 6 second time and saying it was stock? Nothing.


Demosthenes X - acceleration above 140 mph really does have ALOT to do with HP! ALOT - not all - but alot. I don't think there has been a test where the GTR is faster accelerating above 120 mph than a Z06..... let alone the much faster ZR1. But it did - maybe there was a faster car pushing it down the straightaway?

As for the tuning company 'probably' advertising rwhp. Why would they do that? No one else does it.

Mitlov:

Regarding the gearing:

There isn't much more to say. No where on this planet is there information that contradicts what I have posted. I would have to think you've tried and failed to make any findings to the contrary. And if in fact it WERE to be true, then Nissan really did have a ringer instead of the 'stock' car they claim to have run.

Everything you say regarding differences in accel from pre to production is very accurate. The only LAST step is to say that the GTR that ran in the video is pretty far from stock - which makes it a XXXXXX <- what word goes here?

Regarding the video:

You see something. I see something. Impasse agreed on the inside strip to bridge. But the easy thru the windsheild marker that is visible at 6:27 in the vette video and 6:30 in the GTR video and do the timing from there...... Vette is faster to the bridge.....

Hold on a second - this deserves another new post!

[drederick]

Watch the video Mitlov provided:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBZ5i15yVU8

Watch the GTR right at the 6:28-6:32 range.

Do you see what I see? The timer seems to reset itself - just watch the 6:30.xx part of the video. Is there something wrong? It looks to me like it counts out 6:30 and then resets back to 6:30

What is the deal?

[Mitlov]

Watch the video Mitlov provided:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBZ5i15yVU8

Watch the GTR right at the 6:28-6:32 range.

Do you see what I see? The timer seems to reset itself - just watch the 6:30.xx part of the video. Is there something wrong? It looks to me like it counts out 6:30 and then resets back to 6:30

What is the deal?

The problem must be with your computer.  Sometimes I get a bit of lag on YouTube, and maybe you got a bit today.  But I've watched it several times, and the seconds tick off well, like clockwork.  There's no extra second hidden away at 6:30.

[Jaeger]

How do you know the ZR-1 is putting down the power it's supposed to in that vid?  Maybe it's LESS.  I mean...you wanna accuse Nissan of a "ringer"?  Let's accuse GM of having a slightly tired test mule.  Who knows...maybe the Vette (since it's a pre-proddy unit in the vids since production hadn't even begun for those cars at the point the video was made) has had the crap kicked out of it since it's a development car?  Who knows....maybe they have the boost turned down some because of overheating. (I read a blurb in a magazine that said basically this engine is at it's limits for boost with the current set-up. Any more boost and the car will overheat).  So who knows....

How about this...top end, the ZR-1 travels 13 feet/second quicker than the GT-R.  Which isn't alot.  Assume the GT-R gets on the throttle after a corner before the ZR-1 can.  It would take the ZR-1 a bit of time to recoup that to take advantage of the bigger top end pull of it's engine.  If they started a drag race at top speed, after 23 seconds the ZR-1 would only be ahead fewer than 100 meters in PERFECT CONDITIONS.  Since they didn't start at top speed, the earlier on throttle for GT-R, "better" gearing for the GT-R, less HP differential than expected to the wheels, etc..add all of those things up and it would appear that the GT-R can "hang" with the ZR-1 in this particular track condition. Even though, ultimately at the end of the lap the GT-R is slower.

Again...I still don't see WTF you care anyways...the ZR-1 is faster on paper....and in that video.  What's the issue???

He cares because, as a self-confessed GM Slappy, he simpy cannot stand the notion of a Nissan product getting the better of his objet-de-lust in any capacity whatsoever, undery any circumstances whatsoever.  So instead of addressing the comparison test that was the subject of this thread - showing that the GT-R positively smoked the Z06 - he is determined instead to persist in establishing that Nissan cheated at the 'Ring.  All he's got to go on is the video, which is why he refers to it again, and again, and again, and again and.... I've lost count, but I'm not nearly there yet. 

He wil not relent until we all bow down and acknowledge that he has been right all along, and that if one stares at the video long enough - perhaps with slightly unfocussed eyes, the truth of that cheating will be revealed.  Since that pretty much 'aint gonna happen, this thread should have some real longevity.

Jaeger

[safristi]

JAEGER ist mein Nue RINGMEISTER...................... ..........GOLD_plated too.... ...didya cheat me on that THIRD shot??? at tha bridge......ya were a lil slow onna pour................

[Mitlov]

He cares because, as a self-confessed GM Slappy, he simpy cannot stand the notion of a Nissan product getting the better of his objet-de-lust in any capacity whatsoever, undery any circumstances whatsoever.  So instead of addressing the comparison test that was the subject of this thread - showing that the GT-R positively smoked the Z06 - he is determined instead to persist in establishing that Nissan cheated at the 'Ring.  All he's got to go on is the video, which is why he refers to it again, and again, and again, and again and.... I've lost count, but I'm not nearly there yet. 

He wil not relent until we all bow down and acknowledge that he has been right all along, and that if one stares at the video long enough - perhaps with slightly unfocussed eyes, the truth of that cheating will be revealed.  Since that pretty much 'aint gonna happen, this thread should have some real longevity.

Jaeger

You know, I had forgot what started this whole thread at this point.  Thanks for the reminder:

Just read my May issue of Road and Track.  They claim to have the first real comparo.  I was expecting the GT-R to be quicker around the track because of the ease at which you can drive it quickly.  But I was unprepared for how dominant it was.  I would have guessed 1-2 second or so quicker than the other cars. With Steve Millen at the wheels of the cars at Button Willow, the GT-R absolutely destroyed the competition.  How bad?  Both the Z06 and 911 circulated in the 2:02 range.  The GT-R? 1:57 !!!  That's 5 seconds per lap.  I don't recall a comparo of similar cars being so lop-sided.  Millen noted the GT-R gave him more confidence on the track than any street car he'd ever driven.  High praise from a guy like that.

I guess that one was a ringer too?  

[drederick]

Watch the video Mitlov provided:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBZ5i15yVU8

Watch the GTR right at the 6:28-6:32 range.

Do you see what I see? The timer seems to reset itself - just watch the 6:30.xx part of the video. Is there something wrong? It looks to me like it counts out 6:30 and then resets back to 6:30

What is the deal?

The problem must be with your computer.  Sometimes I get a bit of lag on YouTube, and maybe you got a bit today.  But I've watched it several times, and the seconds tick off well, like clockwork.  There's no extra second hidden away at 6:30.

Watch it closely - especially in the high quality option. The 30th second of the 6th minute is about 1.36 seconds long according to the timer. I've watched it many times - try it. Your PC should have it cached so there really shouldn't be a lag......

[safristi]

..I'm gettin' RINGER around tha Collar.........i feel so DIRTY..............give me anuffer SHOT...@ the GOTTERUNDAMRING..................

[Mitlov]

Watch it closely - especially in the high quality option. The 30th second of the 6th minute is about 1.36 seconds long according to the timer. I've watched it many times - try it. Your PC should have it cached so there really shouldn't be a lag......

No, the seconds are ticking off like a metronome on mine.  The 30th second of the 6th minute is exactly the same length as every other second when I watch it.

[safristi]

..my Nuclear CLOCK begs to differ.......................

[quadzilla]

At first this was interesting....then funny....now like a bad rash that won't go away.

In the end, none of this matters because:

a) we don't own these cars
b) we probably won't own these cars
c) IF we did find the cash to buy one of these cars, we don't live in Germany
d) IF we did fly the car to Germany, NOBODY here could get even close to those times

Until then, I'll stick with racing on my Xbox360 which also doesn't have the GTR and wait for the full version of GT5 on the PS3 so I can drive the GTR as fast as I want.