Topic: First Track Test: Nissan GT-R CRUSHES Z06 and Porsche 911 TT

[drederick]

Let's see now - where should I look for unbiased and reliable information illuminating the comparative performance capabilities of the Porsche, the Nissan and the Corvette:

a) Multiple independent and professional automotive publications conducting instrumented testing in controlled conditions and video-taping same;
b) PORSCHE PR statements; or
c) CORVETTE forums.

Help me out here guys, I'm just not sure....

Jaeger

Jaeger honestly. Take a moment and watch the videos that Nissan provided for the 7:29 run. Then watch the video Chev released for the zr1 run. Then read the link from the Corvette forum where the owner of a GTR (who loves it) does a comparo with a Z06 (and as stated before the owner of the GTR OWNS a Z06 as well and loves BOTH cars).

After doing so, what conclusion can be drawn? lest see:
A:) unbiased GTR owner says Z06 IS faster in a straight line (and honestly - find a test where a GTR has higher 1/4 mile trap speed than a Z06 - sure the et may be similar but from a roll? good by GTR)
B:) nissan viseo shows their GTR easily keeping up with a ZR1 down a VERY long stretch of straightaway
C:) Z06 vette cannot out accelerate a ZR1 in a straightline - not even close

so what does D:) equal? let me guess:

D:) nissan GTR handles awesome - and the one in the 7:29 video outhandled the Zr1 by enough that it had 100mph more exit speed going onto the straightaway because of its mad 4wd so of course it stayed with a car with 153 more hp! physics or logic need not apply here!

right.

it is more like:

D:) nissan GTR handles awesome - but the one in the 7:29 video, given it can hang with a car that has 153hp more for a 40 or so second straightaway, was a ringer.

[barrie1]

Who has actually rated the Hp of the Vette as well as they are also known for underrating the HP of their engines for years now. Gear ratio can also make a difference in the higher ranges as well. Its not just who is the best driver as every track is different as well as the times that are created on it. They should stick to just testing at one track to releive the confusion of who supposively is the fastest builder.  

[Jaeger]

Sorry drederick, but I will place greater reliance on the automotive press than I will on a completely unverifiable post made by a completely anonymous poster on a forum dedicated to a competitor vehicle.  Call me crazy if you will.

I hate to get in the way of your obsessive agenda here, but let me ask you a question: take a look at some of the video links of comparison tests conducted by various publications here and tell me how you could possibly conclude that Nissan had a "ringer" in all of them?  That they somehow repeatedly "cheated" each and every time - and no-one noticed?  Even in the test where an owner provides his very own fresh-off-the-boat GT-R, only to have it effortlessly spank the 911 Turbo in one try? 

Did you listen to any of the commentary in that video?  Like how the tester, after 3 laps in the Porsche says that that's as much as he can get out of the car?  And how later, after the rain showers clear, he is driving the GT-R somehwhat tentatively given that a) it is a privately owned vehicle, and b) he is NOW driving on a damp track (the Porsche lapped in the dry), he says he is sure he could get it to go much faster?

I know you would rather we forget all that and simply adopt Porsche press releases and accept what Corvett Forums has to say, but speaking for myself, that's just not going to happen.  You are welcome to sit and watch in-car videos from different sources of tests conducted on different days in (likely) different track conditions and draw whatever conclusions make you feel a little bit better about yourself.

Oh, and I'm still waiting on you to explain how it would be a BAD thing, if in fact the GT-R is making MORE power than advertised.


Jaeger

[drederick]

Jaeger the only agenda is to try and get to the truth. A link was posted with the GTR being faster than a 911. A link was posted where a Z06 was faster than a GTR - and the owner of the GTR also owns a Z06. Would you rather have had the thread posted from the corvetteforum or the GTR forum? It appears in both by the way - with the same result.

No matter what way you spin it - the issue at hand is Porsche actually calling out Nissan. THE video of the 7:29 run was provided by who? Nissan? and the video of the Zr1 was provided by who? Chev?

I think I have been asking ONE question this WHOLE time:

How can the GTR with 480 HP, proven in all tests to have a slower mph in the quarter than a Z06, keep up with the ZR1 which is much faster than a Z06, from a ROLL, down that super long straightaway?

No one is saying the GTR isn't a great car that handles awesome. But how did it keep up with a car with 153 more HP? Just answer me that.

OR explain your agenda for not answering that question.

[Wolfe]

Jaeger the only agenda is to try and get to the truth.

[Mitlov]

Jaeger honestly. Take a moment and watch the videos that Nissan provided for the 7:29 run. Then watch the video Chev released for the zr1 run. Then read the link from the Corvette forum where the owner of a GTR (who loves it) does a comparo with a Z06 (and as stated before the owner of the GTR OWNS a Z06 as well and loves BOTH cars).

After doing so, what conclusion can be drawn? lest see:
A:) unbiased GTR owner says Z06 IS faster in a straight line (and honestly - find a test where a GTR has higher 1/4 mile trap speed than a Z06 - sure the et may be similar but from a roll? good by GTR)
B:) nissan viseo shows their GTR easily keeping up with a ZR1 down a VERY long stretch of straightaway
C:) Z06 vette cannot out accelerate a ZR1 in a straightline - not even close

so what does D:) equal? let me guess:

D:) nissan GTR handles awesome - and the one in the 7:29 video outhandled the Zr1 by enough that it had 100mph more exit speed going onto the straightaway because of its mad 4wd so of course it stayed with a car with 153 more hp! physics or logic need not apply here!

right.

it is more like:

D:) nissan GTR handles awesome - but the one in the 7:29 video, given it can hang with a car that has 153hp more for a 40 or so second straightaway, was a ringer.

I haven't placed the videos side-by-side to time for myself, but I'm a little curious about the top-over-bottom video.  They do the straight between the two bridges in an IDENTICAL time.  Not "same general ballpark."  The GT-R isn't even a half-second faster or a half-second slower than the ZR1.  To me, that makes me wonder about whether any beatmatching was used in the making of that video--slightly slowing or accelerating one video to make the two bridges pass at the same instant in both videos, like how a DJ slows one song on one turn-table so that the rhythm matches that of music on a second turn-table.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beatmatching

As for internet forums, I place zero trust in stories placed on them, because of the number of fakers I've run into on internet forums in my lifetime.  I mean, what's an owner of a GT-R doing on a Corvette forum anyway? 

CAR Magazine, however, is basically the New York Times of automotive testing magazines, and I see no reason to doubt their video.  Indeed, though I think it was made before Porsche accused Nissan of using a ringer, the circumstances in that test are perfect for refuting such accusations.

[The Mighty Duck]

Jaeger the only agenda is to try and get to the truth. A link was posted with the GTR being faster than a 911. A link was posted where a Z06 was faster than a GTR - and the owner of the GTR also owns a Z06. Would you rather have had the thread posted from the corvetteforum or the GTR forum? It appears in both by the way - with the same result.

The great thing about the internet is, you can make up whatever you want.  And someone will believe you.  There's a sucker born every minute...

[Jaeger]

I'd respond further drederic, but it is rather pointless to continue confront mindless rhetoric with logic.  Mitlov tried, and to the surprise of no-one following your posts in this thread, he failed.  I certainly can't hope to pierce the veil of your deep-seated belief in a massive conspiracy, so I won't try.

I'm not holding my breath for your explanaiton as to how Nissan cheated on all those comparison tests - video-taped and published by professional automotive magazines.  You'd have to tear yourself away from Corvette Forums long enough to view / read them, and that is clearly not going to happen. Like most fanatics, you have a well-developed ability to simply ignore reality when it inconveniently contradicts your platform.  You've managed to ignore those tests throughout this thread and I expect you to continue to do so. 

I also won't hold on to a diminishing hope that you will explain how it could be a BAD thing for the GT-R to be producing MORE horsepower than claimed.  Seems to me that this would make it MORE of a raging performance bargain than in clearly already is, but perhaps I am cripled by linear reasoning.

Good luck in your search for any tortured, desparate stretch of imagination to confirm your belief that the GT-R 'aint all that - which is what I take you to mean by "the truth".

Peace.

Jaeger

[Jaeger]

I haven't placed the videos side-by-side to time for myself, but I'm a little curious about the top-over-bottom video.  They do the straight between the two bridges in an IDENTICAL time.  Not "same general ballpark."  The GT-R isn't even a half-second faster or a half-second slower than the ZR1.  To me, that makes me wonder about whether any beatmatching was used in the making of that video--slightly slowing or accelerating one video to make the two bridges pass at the same instant in both videos, like how a DJ slows one song on one turn-table so that the rhythm matches that of music on a second turn-table.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beatmatching

As for internet forums, I place zero trust in stories placed on them, because of the number of fakers I've run into on internet forums in my lifetime.  I mean, what's an owner of a GT-R doing on a Corvette forum anyway? 

CAR Magazine, however, is basically the New York Times of automotive testing magazines, and I see no reason to doubt their video.  Indeed, though I think it was made before Porsche accused Nissan of using a ringer, the circumstances in that test are perfect for refuting such accusations.

Wait a minute now - you're suggeting that videos anonymously posted on youtube aren't all completely authentic and reliable??  THAT'S JUST CRAZY TALK!!!

Wolf - that Baghdad Bob response just cracked me up completely. 

[Mitlov]

I'm going to retract my suggestion of beat-matching.  I tracked down the individual videos of these cars.  The ZR-1 passes under the two bridges from 7:03 to 7:26; the GT-R does it in 7:05 to 7:28.  Each does that stretch in 23 seconds.

ZR-1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6mEirkQN8o (starts at Youtube counter 7:03)
GT-R: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBZ5i15yVU8 (starts at Youtube counter 7:05)

My guess is that the series of tight corners before that stretch (visible in the full videos in this post but not the top-to-bottom comparison) resulted in the GT-R having a significantly better entry speed to that straightaway, which made up for its slower acceleration.  If anyone is good at doing a more detailed analysis of the two videos to see if that theory fits, be my guest.

I do think it's an odd coincidence that both cars did that stretch in EXACTLY 23 seconds, but I'm not convinced that it's a conspiracy based on that coincidence alone.

[drederick]

Jaeger - no searching is needed at all. Every test done on the GTR has shown it CANNOT out accelerate a Z06 vette from a roll. Even the first tests where it was trapping over 120mph in the quarter mile still place it slower than a Z06 vette 1/4 mile speed. ET is close because of the awd launch, but, once that launch is taken out of the equation, it is good night GTR.

So if a GTR cannot touch a Z06 from a roll, how's it going to hang with a ZR1? The only answer is that it cannot.

We're not talking a short straightaway. It is a LONG time down a straightaway.

You watched the videos, right? You see nothing wrong?

Mitlov - that 'guy' posting on a Corvetteforum happens to be lucky enough to own both a GTR and a Z06. There has been alot of debate about the two cars so they set up a match and he posted that both at the Corvetteforum AND nagtroc GTR forum. It wasn't set up to bash either car - just to see how they play out. Makes sense to me.

Now as for the videos while it is not possible to tell how fast the GTR was travelling when it did hit the straightaway in question as there is no speed indication in the video, but it really doesn't appear to be moving along much faster, if at all, than the ZR1.

Here is what Chev says the ZR1 will do:
0-60 mph in 3.4 seconds
0-100 mph in 7.0 seconds
Quarter-mile elapsed time of 11.3 seconds at 131 mph

seems pretty reasonable for a 3400 pound 638 hp car!

In the video of the ZR1 look at the times it does:
just going onto the straightaway it is doing 113mph at 6:36.4
at the bridge 144 at 6:42.1
150 = 6:43.8
160 = 6:47.4

How can the GTR do that with 480 hp?

[Jaeger]

Nope - not much of an agenda at all. 

Jaeger

[drederick]

Nope - not much of an agenda at all. 

Jaeger

did YOU watch the videos? Mitlov did the leg work for you so unless you are blinded by your own 'agenda' ROFL you have to see something is NOT right down that back straightaway.

[Mitlov]

How can the GTR do that with 480 hp?

The GT-R doesn't have 480 hp.  I thought this had been concretely established?  Car & Driver dynoed several GT-Rs and determined that the production car has more like 520 horsepower.

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/columns/c_d_staff/larry_webster/what_is_the_gt_r_s_real_horsepower_column

Now as for the videos while it is not possible to tell how fast the GTR was travelling when it did hit the straightaway in question as there is no speed indication in the video, but it really doesn't appear to be moving along much faster, if at all, than the ZR1.

If you've learned anything from reading reviews and watching tests (like the CAR Magazine and Autocar tests I posted before), the GT-R can carry a LOT of speed through corners, thanks to the sophisticated AWD system.  It can also get onto the gas earlier than a RWD car.  Given this, it really seems highly unlikely to me that the two cars would have the same speed as they entered the straightaway.  And if the GT-R is going faster when it enters the straightaway--even by 20 or 30 mph--then of course the ZR-1 is going to be accelerating significantly faster in order to cover the same straightaway in the same amount of time (23 seconds).

EDIT:  Okay, here you go.  Time from the end of the last striped shoulder on the inside turn (I'm not sure the official name for that stuff) until the first bridge.  The ZR-1 does it in 6:56 to 7:03, seven seconds.  The GT-R does it in 6:59-7:05, six seconds, by my count.  So the GT-R is entering the straight with roughly a 17% velocity advantage, or 20 mph.  The ZR-1 could gain 40 mph of velocity more than the GT-R does during that entire straightaway and still have them travel the distance in the same amount of time.

[Jaeger]

How can the GTR do that with 480 hp?

The GT-R doesn't have 480 hp.  I thought this had been concretely established?  Car & Driver dynoed several GT-Rs and determined that the production car has more like 520 horsepower.

I thought it was pretty obvious and beyond meaningful debate that the GT-R is making more power than advertised.  What I am waiting on is drederick's explanation for why that's a bad thing.  I think I'm in for a long wait.

I wonder what the over / under is on how many more times he is going to quote "results" from the comparative video or reference the Corvette Forums post?

Jaeger

[Jaeger]

did YOU watch the videos?

Yep - I watched all the comparison test videos - you know, the ones running the cars on the same track on the same day with the same driver.  The GT-R sure kicked some very impressive butts.  So glad you finally noticed. 

Jaeger

[Mitlov]

How can the GTR do that with 480 hp?

The GT-R doesn't have 480 hp.  I thought this had been concretely established?  Car & Driver dynoed several GT-Rs and determined that the production car has more like 520 horsepower.

I thought it was pretty obvious and beyond meaningful debate that the GT-R is making more power than advertised.  What I am waiting on is drederick's explanation for why that's a bad thing.  I think I'm in for a long wait.

I wonder what the over / under is on how many more times he is going to quote "results" from the comparative video or reference the Corvette Forums post?

Jaeger

I think the 480 versus 520 thing is a bit of a red herring in this discussion.  Either way, it's not going to be able to match the ZR-1 acceleration-wise.  But it doesn't have to in order to match the ZR-1 down that straight.  It's coming in with 20 mph more entry speed.  The ZR-1 absolutely rocks it acceleration-wise in order to make up for that difference in initial velocity.

In my opinion, case closed.  Nobody is cheating.  The GT-R and the ZR-1 are both blazing fast, but the GT-R has a few more eggs in the corner-speed basket, and the ZR-1 has a few more eggs in the acceleration basket.

[rrocket]

This is what I've been saying since even before the ZR-1 ran at the 'Ring.  It's a well established fact that the Z06 with 130 or so less HP than the ZR-1 was VERY difficult to get it through the corners because the car was a bit tail-happy.  They've cured some of those ills (a bit) with the ZR-1.  But with all of the HP it's NOT easy to get that car through the corners and back onto the throttle.  The GT-R?  The rougher you are the quicker it seems to go through the corners which is important.  Most racers would take a car that gets through corners more easily and with more speed than a car that's super-fast on the straights.

And like I said before...with the tremendous power the ZR-1 enjoys over the GT-R, I thought it would be much quicker at the 'Ring than I thought.  But it's not..which I think proves somewhat that the ZR-1 is "Jack the Bear" to drive with the hammer down....


My Supra makes ZR-1 power and there is just no way you can even approach anything close to a big dose of power through the corners.  You have to be a bit careful when the gas pedal hits the floor completely and you'd better not be sawing like mad at the wheel.  The GT-R on the other hand can be floored, the steering wheel wrenched and it STILL finds a way to get through the corner quickly..without drama..

[Jaeger]

I think the 480 versus 520 thing is a bit of a red herring in this discussion.  Either way, it's not going to be able to match the ZR-1 acceleration-wise.  But it doesn't have to in order to match the ZR-1 down that straight.  It's coming in with 20 mph more entry speed.  The ZR-1 absolutely rocks it acceleration-wise in order to make up for that difference in initial velocity.

In my opinion, case closed.  Nobody is cheating.  The GT-R and the ZR-1 are both blazing fast, but the GT-R has a few more eggs in the corner-speed basket, and the ZR-1 has a few more eggs in the acceleration basket.

Agreed.

Jaeger

[wing]

How can the GTR do that with 480 hp?

The GT-R doesn't have 480 hp.  I thought this had been concretely established?  Car & Driver dynoed several GT-Rs and determined that the production car has more like 520 horsepower.

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/columns/c_d_staff/larry_webster/what_is_the_gt_r_s_real_horsepower_column

Now as for the videos while it is not possible to tell how fast the GTR was travelling when it did hit the straightaway in question as there is no speed indication in the video, but it really doesn't appear to be moving along much faster, if at all, than the ZR1.

If you've learned anything from reading reviews and watching tests (like the CAR Magazine and Autocar tests I posted before), the GT-R can carry a LOT of speed through corners, thanks to the sophisticated AWD system.  It can also get onto the gas earlier than a RWD car.  Given this, it really seems highly unlikely to me that the two cars would have the same speed as they entered the straightaway.  And if the GT-R is going faster when it enters the straightaway--even by 20 or 30 mph--then of course the ZR-1 is going to be accelerating significantly faster in order to cover the same straightaway in the same amount of time (23 seconds).

EDIT:  Okay, here you go.  Time from the end of the last striped shoulder on the inside turn (I'm not sure the official name for that stuff) until the first bridge.  The ZR-1 does it in 6:56 to 7:03, seven seconds.  The GT-R does it in 6:59-7:05, six seconds, by my count.  So the GT-R is entering the straight with roughly a 17% velocity advantage, or 20 mph.  The ZR-1 could gain 40 mph of velocity more than the GT-R does during that entire straightaway and still have them travel the distance in the same amount of time.

Now THAT (the corner exit speed) is some serious brain power at work -- and most likely dead on heck and Mitlov isn't even a track whore.

Example:
Calabogie Saturday afternoon.

Me in 300whp S2000 tailing 400whp Subaru WRX on race track.  Into corner, WRX brakes too early because of weight, I catch up on corner entry.  Because we are not pro drivers we carry similar speed through the corner despite the fact I could probably carry slightly more.  On corner exit WRX can get on the gas MUCH earlier and power away but corner after corner for 5-7 laps we were tip to tail around the track.  It was extremely exciting and fun!

I tried to get on the power earlier and the back end would step out on me, I could see him (especially out of slower corners) get on the gas and launch out like mad and I would catch up again into the next corner.

It would be difficult to get on the power fully in the ZR-1 I can only imagine!