Author Topic: GM 1.4 TDI for next year.  (Read 4744 times)

Offline EV Dan

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GM 1.4 TDI for next year.
« on: January 28, 2008, 09:27:19 pm »
I'm sure it was mentioned before, but here I came across a news where they say that even Cobalt will be available for NA with this engine

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/01/28/general-motors-to-introduce-smaller-1-4l-turbo-on-us-small-cars/

To me 140 HP from a diesel sounds better than their 2.2 ecotec's horses..
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Offline ArticSteve

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Re: GM 1.4 TDI for next year.
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2008, 09:52:10 pm »
Never mind fuel cells, plug-ins or diesels. To achieve quick improvements in fuel economy, General Motors is adopting an off-the-shelf technology: small engines with turbochargers.

Automotive News

 :think:

« Last Edit: January 28, 2008, 09:53:41 pm by articsteve »

Vil

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Re: GM 1.4 TDI for next year.
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2008, 10:08:48 pm »
I'm sure it was mentioned before, but here I came across a news where they say that even Cobalt will be available for NA with this engine

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/01/28/general-motors-to-introduce-smaller-1-4l-turbo-on-us-small-cars/

To me 140 HP from a diesel sounds better than their 2.2 ecotec's horses..

Um, that article talks about gas engines not diesels.

Offline EV Dan

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Re: GM 1.4 TDI for next year.
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2008, 10:17:49 pm »
oops  ;D time to start a top 10 bogus posts countdown..

If its not a diesel after all, I am curious how much more efficient it will be.

Offline ArticSteve

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Re: GM 1.4 TDI for next year.
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2008, 10:35:53 pm »
OK, if GM is thinking small diesels then who is going to build it  ???  They certainly can't do it in house.

If its not a diesel after all, I am curious how much more efficient it will be

That's a good question.  :think:

The problem for GM is that they are very late to the game in supplying first rate  4 bangers in North America.  I think they are very poorly positioned for the next few years on supplying a great small engine, diesel or gas.     

LBJGH

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Re: GM 1.4 TDI for next year.
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2008, 10:48:53 pm »
GM has a history of building engines with catstrophic failure rates.  Let's hope GM find a Eurpean or Japanese partner to build 'em engines. 

Offline inco

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Re: GM 1.4 TDI for next year.
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2008, 05:55:41 am »
GM must have diesels in Europe, yes/no? I mean everyone over there has them so it seems GM would as well, although maybe they buy them from another company. I can't fathom that they wouldn't offer them.


Offline tpl

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Re: GM 1.4 TDI for next year.
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2008, 06:45:08 am »
Is not the 1.4 TDI an Astra engine ?  that is a common size in euland diesels

But no practical road going 1.4 tdi will produce 140 bhp

But a 1.4 turbo gas engine should be able to produce 140 bhp  but I suspect it would need a big turbo and be not nice to drive
« Last Edit: January 29, 2008, 06:46:53 am by tpl »
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Offline jww

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Re: GM 1.4 TDI for next year.
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2008, 11:53:30 am »
GM must have diesels in Europe, yes/no? I mean everyone over there has them so it seems GM would as well, although maybe they buy them from another company. I can't fathom that they wouldn't offer them.



Vauxhall/Opels are all available with various diesel engine variants depending on the vehicle size and purpose. I still would like to see more diesel options here in NA, but we seem to be very diesel-unfriendly here. Emissions from diesel are not what they used to be. The Peugeot 307 estate we drove in the UK last summer was excellent - you couldn't tell the difference between it and a petrol vehicle except that you went alot further on a tank of fuel.
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Offline G35X

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Re: GM 1.4 TDI for next year.
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2008, 07:01:20 pm »
“But a 1.4 turbo gas engine should be able to produce 140 bhp  but I suspect it would need a big turbo and be not nice to drive…”

VW’s blown 1.4 gas TSI produces 170 bhp, and I understand it is nice to drive.  But, is blowing gas engine such a nice idea?  We have to remember that turbo charging (as well as supercharging) is a method to burn MORE gas. Therefore, it is wrong to state that the engine sips gas like a 1.4 and produces power like an NA 2.0. The advantage of turbo charging a small gas engine is possibly lighter weight and smaller package even with the added weight and bulk of the turbocharger than an NA engine of comparable power especially when we are comparing I-4 and V-6.  (BMW’s I-6 335i engine is blown possibly because there is no more room to expand bore and/or stroke for more power.) 
But there are disadvantages:

1. Increase in pressure inside combustion chamber. If the boost pressure is 1000 hPa, for example, a 10:1 compression ratio (geometrically) engine becomes in effect a 20:1 engine, which certainly causes spontaneous combustion or knocking unless you do something (see notes below).

2. Exhaust plumbing must be compromised (in the area of back pressure and sonic pulse tuning).

3. More waste of energy as heat (Engine runs hot).

4. Mechanical components must withstand the increased heat.

Maybe more…

Notes:
A)   Squirt more fuel into the combustion chamber than the available oxygen can burn it. (poor fuel mileage and increase in raw gas, hydrogen and/or carbon in exhaust)
B)   Retard spark timing. (poor fuel mileage, reduced power)
C)   Retard closing of intake valve after piston goes into compression mode (Miller cycle), thereby lowering effective compression ratio. (reduced power, but increased efficiency)
D)   Inject fuel into the combustion chamber when piston reaches its top and let it burn quickly either by spark plug or by compression.













Offline tpl

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Re: GM 1.4 TDI for next year.
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2008, 07:20:08 pm »
To me Turbocharged gasoline engines are nicest when they emulate diesels.   Flat torque curve starting at low rpm, no need to exceed 4000 rpm for best performance.   
I do agree that the extra engine compartment heat is a problem... for which there ought to be a solution... after all one really wants the exhaust temperature of a heat engine to be as close to ambient as possible  for efficiency.


Offline huota

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Re: GM 1.4 TDI for next year.
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2008, 07:30:09 pm »
But a 1.4 turbo gas engine should be able to produce 140 bhp  but I suspect it would need a big turbo and be not nice to drive

The VW 1.4 TSI is twin-charger (turbo and supercharger) and makes 140 or 170 DIN hp and 220 or 240 Nm of torque from as low as 1750 rpm. Combined fuel mileage is 7.1/7.3 l/100km. This compares to the NA 1.4 engine at 80 hp, 132 Nm and 6,9 l/100km.

These figures look very reasonable to me, and I plan to test drive the 140 hp TSI Golf in the near future to see what it feels like in the real world.
Fiction is the lie through which we tell the truth

Offline G35X

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Re: GM 1.4 TDI for next year.
« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2008, 08:45:24 pm »
"...after all one really wants the exhaust temperature of a heat engine to be as close to ambient as possible  for efficiency..."

If expansion stroke is longer than compression stroke (Miller cycle or Atkinson cycle), indeed the exhaust gas temperature gets lower and efficiency increases.  But, for turbo charger you also want to have the "punch" power of the hot exhaust to drive the turbine blades.  I wonder if BMW (335i), Mazda (CX-7), VW (TSI) and Honda (RDX) are actually delaying closure of intake valves...  With the latest valve phase control technology it should be relatively easy.

Offline tpl

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Re: GM 1.4 TDI for next year.
« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2008, 09:18:44 pm »
But a 1.4 turbo gas engine should be able to produce 140 bhp  but I suspect it would need a big turbo and be not nice to drive

The VW 1.4 TSI is twin-charger (turbo and supercharger) and makes 140 or 170 DIN hp and 220 or 240 Nm of torque from as low as 1750 rpm. Combined fuel mileage is 7.1/7.3 l/100km. This compares to the NA 1.4 engine at 80 hp, 132 Nm and 6,9 l/100km.

These figures look very reasonable to me, and I plan to test drive the 140 hp TSI Golf in the near future to see what it feels like in the real world.

Aha! I was not aware that it was a compound engine.   I thought that people gave up on that complexity with the last of the piston aero engines.

Offline tpl

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Re: GM 1.4 TDI for next year.
« Reply #14 on: January 29, 2008, 09:22:58 pm »
"...after all one really wants the exhaust temperature of a heat engine to be as close to ambient as possible  for efficiency..."

If expansion stroke is longer than compression stroke (Miller cycle or Atkinson cycle), indeed the exhaust gas temperature gets lower and efficiency increases.  But, for turbo charger you also want to have the "punch" power of the hot exhaust to drive the turbine blades.  I wonder if BMW (335i), Mazda (CX-7), VW (TSI) and Honda (RDX) are actually delaying closure of intake valves...  With the latest valve phase control technology it should be relatively easy.

yes G35, the temp into the turbo wants to be high to get lots of energy into the compressor but ideally the compressor turbine   or some other device in the exhaust stream  would use all that energy for something useful.

As for the engines you mention  I suggest that it is more likely that they do whatever they do for emissions rather than power. After all that 3 litre 335 engine should be able to produce 300 bhp without turbocharging and more like 420 bhp with forced air.

barrie1

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Re: GM 1.4 TDI for next year.
« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2008, 12:16:03 am »
I am sure GM with their vast supply of world parts bins will come up with something that will sell here quite well and be of great quality as well. They already have a business connection with Toyota on some of their product lines so that alone is only one of the possibilities avaliable to them. They also have shares in many other engine builders so they are not stuck for a power supply at all to build great vehicles of any size. They are somewhat spoiled with having so many good choices to choose from plus their own natural designs as well. Most of them are pretty solid in their own right as well.  :)

Cortina

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Re: GM 1.4 TDI for next year.
« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2008, 01:20:07 am »
I am sure GM with their vast supply of world parts bins will come up with something that will sell here quite well and be of great quality as well. They already have a business connection with Toyota on some of their product lines so that alone is only one of the possibilities avaliable to them.

They don't need to. The Astra Diesel they make are all fine and dandy and GM's has been making them for over 10 years. They could put them on the same boat as the Saturn Astras and have them arrive at the same time, if they really wanted to. :)

Offline jww

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Re: GM 1.4 TDI for next year.
« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2008, 11:11:53 am »
I am sure GM with their vast supply of world parts bins will come up with something that will sell here quite well and be of great quality as well. They already have a business connection with Toyota on some of their product lines so that alone is only one of the possibilities avaliable to them.

They don't need to. The Astra Diesel they make are all fine and dandy and GM's has been making them for over 10 years. They could put them on the same boat as the Saturn Astras and have them arrive at the same time, if they really wanted to. :)
The key is "...if they really wanted to." I wonder if any NA manufacturer is truly committed to diesel in this neck of the woods. I find it a bit odd that pickups with Cummins diesels are all over the place, yet we don't see the TDI technology in locally sourced manufacturing -- too bad as they do have access to some fairly good stuff in European subsidiaries. Or better yet - someone buy Peugeot and use their diesels - touted by many as the best diesel car engines in the world.

Cortina

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Re: GM 1.4 TDI for next year.
« Reply #18 on: January 30, 2008, 11:26:33 am »
someone buy Peugeot and use their diesels - touted by many as the best diesel car engines in the world.

Because they are.  ;D

I find the NA Diesel all sound clattery. The Ford Econoline is a foul beast. I have never driven a GM or Dodge Diesels. Accept the rebadge Merc. Which has sweet quiet Diesel. :)

I think it really has to do with the winter more than anything.  :)

Offline jww

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Re: GM 1.4 TDI for next year.
« Reply #19 on: January 30, 2008, 11:30:47 am »
someone buy Peugeot and use their diesels - touted by many as the best diesel car engines in the world.

Because they are.  ;D
...
Agreed - I can't sing enough praises for the 307 estate diesel which we drove last summer for a month in the UK. Couldn't tell it wasn't petrol -- wait a minute, haven't I said that before  ;)

Sweet diesels - too bad Peugeot doesn't sell them to NA manufacturers to put on our roads. They are really impressive engines.