Author Topic: My suggestion to Cadillac--a Kappa platform compact sedan  (Read 3969 times)

Mitlov

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My suggestion to Cadillac--a Kappa platform compact sedan
« on: January 12, 2008, 04:35:37 am »
If there's one thing to learn from the tobacco industry, it's that you want to grab new customers when they're young and unimpressionable.

The new CTS and CTS-V have proved that Cadillac is not just for retirees and rappers anymore.  Thing is, the compact sport sedan segment is has the most sales of any sport sedan segment (not just for BMW, but for Mercedes and Audi, I think).  GM is now (correctly) arguing that size-wise, weight-wise, and comfort-wise, the CTS is a midsizer...even though it's priced like a compact German sedan.  As is, Caddy has an "entry-level" car, but it's only for Europe, and more importantly, it's just a rebadged Saab 9-3, FWD and all.  Not a "real" Caddy in my mind, and not capable enough to win over buyers from the Teutonic marques.

There's this whole market of teenage Southern Californians who are grabbing up A3s and will be grabbing up 1-Serieses even more.  And then there's 35-year-old young professionals who want something compact (for the city), sporty, upscale, but still affordable on a "I'm getting there but I'm not loaded yet" salary, who are doing the same.

That's why I'd like to propose the ATS sedan and coupe.  Infiniti found that a roadster's chassis actually makes a good platform for a sport sedan, despite the cosmetic differences (350Z --> G35).  That's why I thought that GM could capitalize off of the Kappa platform, which is an excellent platform whose sales have been damaged by the impracticalities of the two Kappa roadsters.  A Kappa sport sedan would take advantage of the great things about a Solstice GXP (read Wing's review) while avoiding the roof, trunk, and storage space gripes.

I'm thinking of a RWD sedan and coupe, about the size of an E46 3-series sedan and coupe, or perhaps a C-Class or Lexus IS.  Base engine is GM's 260 hp 2.0L turbo four.  Maybe some variety of V6 as a midrange engine, but maybe skip the midrange engine altogether.  ATS-V should have a 400 hp LS2 (which we already know fits, due to Mallett's V8 Solstice conversion). 

Interior quality should be halfway between the first CTS and the second CTS, and should look like the second CTS--helping keep price down while still giving people something to gush over.  Exterior should follow the second-generation CTS design, and should offer a bit more bling than the German competitors, without being over-the-top.

The car should start at US $28k, with the turbo four and a manual, leatherette, manually adjustable seats (that are still very comfortable, as the Cadillac name suggests), and no sunroof.  Typically equipped, it'll cost perhaps $32,000, giving it a substantial price (and agility) advantage over a typically-equipped CTS, while still being priced high enough for GM to profit.  The ATS-V should have a base price of US$50k, which should be manageable, undercutting the M3 substantially and comparing to a loaded 335i in price.

I'm not looking for a vehicle that will beat a 3-Series around a track, just as a CTS may not beat a 5-Series around a track.  But a CTS offers most of the performance and space of a 5-Series, with perhaps more comfort, all at a 3-Series price.  I want the ATS to offer most of the performance and space of a 3-Series, with perhaps more comfort, and a 1-Series price.

I think it can be done.  I think it should be done.  And I think it would get a whole new generation of young, upwardly-mobile professionals hooked on Caddies.

Thoughts?
« Last Edit: January 12, 2008, 04:40:11 am by Mitlov »

Offline tpl

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Re: My suggestion to Cadillac--a Kappa platform compact sedan
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2008, 06:47:23 am »
One change Mitlov:

"Interior quality should be halfway between the first CTS and the second CTS, and should look like the second CTS--helping keep price down while still giving people something to gush over.  Exterior should follow the second-generation CTS design, and should offer a bit more bling than the German competitors, without being over-the-top."

Interior costs saved with a simpler layout, less leather, manual seats etc etc.  but the quality of whatever materials   are used and the workmanship should be the same.  Lets not spoil Cadillacs new thing with a cheap looking  interior so the auto journos can pick on it.

The most radical revolutionary will become a conservative the day after the revolution.

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Re: My suggestion to Cadillac--a Kappa platform compact sedan
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2008, 07:59:54 am »
"impressionable?" perhaps..............
Time is to stop everything happening at once

Offline Snowman

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Re: My suggestion to Cadillac--a Kappa platform compact sedan
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2008, 12:07:34 pm »
I agree with Mit, I think introducing an entry level Cady to attract younger customers is a great idea considering all the positive press the new models are getting. The timing is perfect and a hatch model is the way to go.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2008, 12:09:38 pm by Snowman »

Mitlov

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Re: My suggestion to Cadillac--a Kappa platform compact sedan
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2008, 12:10:00 pm »
Interior costs saved with a simpler layout, less leather, manual seats etc etc.  but the quality of whatever materials   are used and the workmanship should be the same.  Lets not spoil Cadillacs new thing with a cheap looking  interior so the auto journos can pick on it.



Good point.

Offline The Mighty Duck

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Re: My suggestion to Cadillac--a Kappa platform compact sedan
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2008, 12:54:30 pm »
I'd buy one.  Love the CTS, would love a smaller, lighter version even more.  Turbo four and perhaps the 3.6L Direct Injection engine optional on the CTS would make it plenty powerful vs. the competition.

Wolfe

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Re: My suggestion to Cadillac--a Kappa platform compact sedan
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2008, 01:11:16 pm »
:thumbup: Great idea, waaaay waaaay better than the BLS.


IIRC the Kappa platform was heavily based on the Corvette platform to save on development costs. The C6 Corvette has a 107.5 inch wheel base, the Solstice a 95.1 inch wheelbase. An e46 3 Series sedan has a 107.3 inch wheel base.

:think:
Kappa ~= shortened Corvette chassis
and
New Caddy = stretched Kappa

Therefore, new Caddy ~= Corvette chassis :o :o :fall:

At around $30k I'd definitely buy one of those ;) :rofl2:


Mitlov

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Re: My suggestion to Cadillac--a Kappa platform compact sedan
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2008, 01:36:15 pm »
:think:
Kappa ~= shortened Corvette chassis
and
New Caddy = stretched Kappa

Therefore, new Caddy ~= Corvette chassis :o :o :fall:

At around $30k I'd definitely buy one of those ;) :rofl2:

I'm pretty sure that the Kappa platform is similar in concept to the 'Vette chassis, but uses less expensive materials and construction to keep costs down.  So I wouldn't say that a Kappa sedan would be anything like a four-door Corvette.

Does gives some ideas for what to do for the chassis of the ATS-V, though, doesn't it?  :)

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Re: My suggestion to Cadillac--a Kappa platform compact sedan
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2008, 02:51:16 pm »
As long as they don't call it... Cimarron! :run:

Leviathan

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Re: My suggestion to Cadillac--a Kappa platform compact sedan
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2008, 04:55:40 pm »
As long as they don't call it... Cimarron! :run:
:bang:

Wolfe

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Re: My suggestion to Cadillac--a Kappa platform compact sedan
« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2008, 04:58:21 pm »
:think:
Kappa ~= shortened Corvette chassis
and
New Caddy = stretched Kappa

Therefore, new Caddy ~= Corvette chassis :o :o :fall:

At around $30k I'd definitely buy one of those ;) :rofl2:

I'm pretty sure that the Kappa platform is similar in concept to the 'Vette chassis, but uses less expensive materials and construction to keep costs down.  So I wouldn't say that a Kappa sedan would be anything like a four-door Corvette.

I know, hence the ~ before the =

As I recall when they were designing the chassis of the Solstice (after they'd shown the concept as a styling exercise only) they were on a very tight deadline and to save time they "borrowed" the basic layout of the Corvette chassis and shortened it. They took the other components from other cars (suspension and such was taken from the CTS) as well to save time and development costs. At least that's the story I remember reading somewhere a while back.

Does gives some ideas for what to do for the chassis of the ATS-V, though, doesn't it?  :)

Then what do they do with the XLR?

barrie1

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Re: My suggestion to Cadillac--a Kappa platform compact sedan
« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2008, 10:15:52 pm »
The XLR is extremely close to the Vett already as it is useing some of the parts of it in its design. Cadillac is a more presteige car and should not be cheapened just to make someone Happy. The price should reflect what it does now as Great quality and well built like the CTS should never be just given away at all. I think we are doing very well to have the CTS at the price it sells for already as it has beat all the other vehicles in its segment for the Car of the year Award already. And for a lot less then most of the competitors vehicles as well. The CTS is the stepping stone for many young buyers to move up to the larger models as money and be able to fulfill need comes easier in later life usually. I like almost all models of the Caddies as I have been driving them for years and still own 2 at the moment.   :)

Offline TopGun

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Re: My suggestion to Cadillac--a Kappa platform compact sedan
« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2008, 11:42:05 am »
As much as I like the CTS, I personally don't want a car that big.  So, I'm with you Mitlov.

The car mags report that GM realizes the opportunity.  This month's Motor Trend says:

  • Kappa is unable to be stretched to accomodate a small sedan
  • They'll likely use the Alpha platform (I think this is old news)
  • Profitability dictates they need to build a "volume" model alongside
  • Insiders identify that Chevy will receive the model (not Pontiac)
  • GM thinks they can differentiate enough to avoid a Cimmaron disaster

Mitlov

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Re: My suggestion to Cadillac--a Kappa platform compact sedan
« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2008, 12:17:35 pm »
As much as I like the CTS, I personally don't want a car that big.  So, I'm with you Mitlov.

The car mags report that GM realizes the opportunity.  This month's Motor Trend says:

  • Kappa is unable to be stretched to accomodate a small sedan
  • They'll likely use the Alpha platform (I think this is old news)
  • Profitability dictates they need to build a "volume" model alongside
  • Insiders identify that Chevy will receive the model (not Pontiac)
  • GM thinks they can differentiate enough to avoid a Cimmaron disaster

http://www.leftlanenews.com/gm-insiders-talk-ctszetaalpha-plans.html

The Alpha platform will be all-new, developed by Holden, and RWD.  Sounds good.

Mitlov

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Re: My suggestion to Cadillac--a Kappa platform compact sedan
« Reply #14 on: January 13, 2008, 12:21:06 pm »
Then what do they do with the XLR?

I don't see much danger for overlap with a US$50k four-seat coupe or compact sedan, and a US$80-100k two-seat hardtop convertible.  The latter would obviously be faster and more luxurious.  I also don't think you should have an engine as "raw" as the LS2 in an XLR, even a base model.  I don't think it would appeal to that crowd like it would appeal to the wealthy-boy-racer crowd who buys M3s and the ATS-V and the like.

barrie1

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Re: My suggestion to Cadillac--a Kappa platform compact sedan
« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2008, 10:18:46 pm »
If they can afford the M3's or similar Toys then GM is in the right market for these Boy Racer types as the pricing is all similar in this category. The CTS-V is a lot of car for the price involved and is probably the best in this class as well. Already proven in this years selections of Car of the The Year Awards.  :)

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Re: My suggestion to Cadillac--a Kappa platform compact sedan
« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2008, 11:30:25 pm »
your proposed car sounds good.

something along the lines of this, eh?
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/autoshows/detroit/2008/cadillacctscoupeconcept.html?tid=edmunds.il.home.photopanel..2.*

2" shorter than CTS sedan, reportedly, but looks a lot smaller from pictures.
:)

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Re: My suggestion to Cadillac--a Kappa platform compact sedan
« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2008, 02:23:40 am »
If Mitlov were a product planner for GM, he would be getting a 7-figure bonus for this proposal.  ;D
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barrie1

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Re: My suggestion to Cadillac--a Kappa platform compact sedan
« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2008, 09:34:02 pm »
No just a key to the Exec washroom more then likely. He would still make a decent wage but not quite that high at all to begin with.  :)

Mitlov

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Re: My suggestion to Cadillac--a Kappa platform compact sedan
« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2008, 10:42:51 am »
I'm not an insider, I just rock:

AutoBlog: Baby Caddies go by the name "ATS".

GM is working on a new compact RWD sport sedan/sports coupe based off the new Alpha platform.  Alpha is a RWD platform apparently partway between the Kappa roadsters and the Zeta large RWD cars in size.  It apparently will go by the name ATS.

Autoblog: Zeta +Kappa = Alpha?