Topic: Canadians: Stop buying cars!!

[random006]

SOMEONE SHOULD CREATE A WEB SITE W/. EVERY CANADAIAN TO SIGN FOR REDUCE THE CAR PRICES!

And that will happen just after every Canadian votes for the same political party.    And right after every Canadian learns to write grammatically.

GO SET UP ANOTHER "ENGLISH TEACHER" TREAD, IF YOU CARE ABOUT THE GRAMMA. DO NOT WASTE THE TIME HERE FOR "STOP BUYING CARS TREADS. MR. PROFESSOR

I would care about my "gramma", if she were still alive.   Most, if not all members of CTC do care about our words enough to at least spell them correctly.  That is the only tool we have here to get our message across, "smileys" and style changes nothwithstanding.   Yes, I know that there is a certain latitude allowed in online posting but taking the time to get that right has another effect, that of taking the unnecessary emotion out of your message and allowing the reasoning to flow through instead.

Oh and btw, please do not shout.  Our hearing is fine. 

[canadacraig]

I agree with you and I - for one - NEVER expect Canadian and U.S. car price to 'equalize'. But there is a LOT of room to move down. As I said in my 'Canada vs US' car prices message thread.... "What I'm suggesting is that there is no justification for WHY cars cost so much more in Canada than they do in the U.S. and that the Canadian Msrp should be lowered. A couple thousand dollars more - here - in Canada - for the same car you could buy in the U.S.? Sure - I have no problem with that. But thousands and thousands of dollars more - sometimes TENS OF THOUSANDS of dollars more? That's just ridiculous."

Craig!!

What "justification" do they need?

They are in business to make $. They charge as much as the market will bear. As long as manufacturers are not colluding with each other within Canada to set prices they can set prices wherever they want.

Hi 2latecrew!!

You're right. Businesses don't need to justify anything insofar as what they ask for their product. But the justification I was referring to was from the point of view of the consumer. Do I think it's justified? NO - I don't.  And neither do many other Canadians. It's the consumer that has to decide whether or not what a business is asking for their product is justified. Sadly - the solution is painfully simple. But then - so are many Canadians. WE tend to b*tch and moan and complain while grabbing our ankles and letting anyone do anything they want to us. As a Canadian - I find it embarrassing. But who knows - maybe with enough negative publicity - ONE of the car manufacturers will lower their prices and then others might follow. Should I start holding my breath now?!

Craig!!

[Agiledood]

In one of the papers this week a Calgary columnist mentioned taking a trip south to look at trailers that ended up with buying one:

....We bought a travel trailer...The North Idaho dealer at Saigle, Idaho wanted 16,999, while the Calgary dealer had it listed at 23,600........I should point out that if we had ordered a 2008 trailer from the Calgary dealer (with delivery in March) it would have been the same price as a 2008 model from the Idaho dealer.

So things are changing, I think it's just a question of how long it will take before prices equalize.

Don't forget that the dealer's COST on the existing one might be higher than the US price of $17K (if he is trying to sell an older unit from inventory). That is why new ones to order could be closer to US pricing. Depends where the trailers were made.

"Prices equalize" - will never happen, prices in the US and Canada will never be the same as there are 10 times the population in the US, less regulation, and a more competitive market. Prices in Canada have room to move down perhaps, but will never "equalize" IMO.

We paid more for stuff in Canada even when the Cdn dollar was at a premium to the US dollar back in the 50s and early 60s. 

Exactly, I don’t understand why people don’t get this, are they that stupid?

I wouldn't necessarily call it stupid....more un-educated about the facts.  Joe-Schmo consumer will only look on the surface (IE: that subaru is 10K more here!!!! outrageous!!!) and not consider the difference in population, economy, trade and material issues, labour costs etc which is factored into the cost of a car.

I know I don't understand much about economics but I know enough to agree that price equality will never exist in 2 different markets.  I'm glad people are outraged by the price difference, raise the issue to the point of awareness and try to change was isn't working.  Isn't that what democracy is all about?

[2latecrew]

I agree with you and I - for one - NEVER expect Canadian and U.S. car price to 'equalize'. But there is a LOT of room to move down. As I said in my 'Canada vs US' car prices message thread.... "What I'm suggesting is that there is no justification for WHY cars cost so much more in Canada than they do in the U.S. and that the Canadian Msrp should be lowered. A couple thousand dollars more - here - in Canada - for the same car you could buy in the U.S.? Sure - I have no problem with that. But thousands and thousands of dollars more - sometimes TENS OF THOUSANDS of dollars more? That's just ridiculous."

Craig!!

What "justification" do they need?

They are in business to make $. They charge as much as the market will bear. As long as manufacturers are not colluding with each other within Canada to set prices they can set prices wherever they want.

Hi 2latecrew!!

You're right. Businesses don't need to justify anything insofar as what they ask for their product. But the justification I was referring to was from the point of view of the consumer. Do I think it's justified? NO - I don't.  And neither do many other Canadians. It's the consumer that has to decide whether or not what a business is asking for their product is justified. Sadly - the solution is painfully simple. But then - so are many Canadians. WE tend to b*tch and moan and complain while grabbing our ankles and letting anyone do anything they want to us. As a Canadian - I find it embarrassing. But who knows - maybe with enough negative publicity - ONE of the car manufacturers will lower their prices and then others might follow. Should I start holding my breath now?!

Craig!!

Yes the solution is simple. But its not what you are suggesting. Negative publicity is useless.
When it comes to NEW car sales
Manufacturers do not care how much you dislike the fact that the prices in Canada are higher. they do not care that they cannot expalin (which is different than "justifying") the difference in US vs Canadian price without sounding very ugly and telling the truth. They do it becuse they can.

they will not care about this until Canadians buy enough US Cars to move dealers to have a point of action in Canada. At that point they will react. Most likley by blocking sales to Canadians in the US. Canadians cannoit and will not stop buying cars altogether. You either buy in Canada or in the US simple. If they block their dealers from selling you a Hinda in the US you either buy one in Canada at the price they ask or you choose another brand. Simple.

The solution really isn't simple becuse there really is little motivation for manufacturers to lower Canadian prices. They have two options. lower Canadian prices or block US slaes to Canada. Doing the latter is easy and much more profitable for them.

If you have the finacial ability to buy without dealer financing or leasing and can do without warranty in mist cases go to the US buy a car and send your message. Save money!

If you can't do those things then be prepared to continue to pay higher prices when you at some point have no choice to buy a new vehicle and finance or lease it.


They simply don't give a about negative customer publicity. they care about the eefects such publicity has on their bottom line dollars and the fact it that it has almost none becuse they are in control. People "need" to buy new cars in Canada. they need to finance or lease. No amount of letters or articles will change it.

As I said people CAN change things buy buying in the US. But they simply cannot decide how things will change. You can change what they do but you can't foirce them to lower prices. They can choose between lowering prices or blocking sales without it effecting "volume".

[johngenx]

To most auto makers, the Canada/Us border no longer means a thing.  Most have built production facilities in North America and the goods are moved from nation to nation with impunity thanks to free trade.  They can moved production where they like, ship parts form and to where they like and do all of the above with labour.  The argument that Canada is a smaller market has no bearing whatsoever anymore.

What pisses me off is that the manuacturers can have all the advantages of free trade, but NONE of the disadvantages.  They want to be able to have free access to all markets, but restrict their dealers and the consumers form buying where and when they want to.

The USA is no more a competitive market for Subaru than Canada.  We are showing that by wathcing US Subaru dealers dying to advertise here and hoping to lure Canadian shoppers.  Why?  If Canadian customers are so few that we have to be charged some much higher price, why on earth would a Subaru dealer in Montana bother?  The reality is that the US market now includes Canada thanks to the dollar parity.  Don't like it?  Well, then let's go back to managed trade.  Free trade is an excuse for letting business have their way, and it's BS.

Personally, I'd be all in favour of scrapping NAFTA.  Let's manage our trade (scrapping free trade does NOT mean no trade, as there was billions and billions of dollars of trade before free trade) and help our manufacturing business thrive despite our small population.  We need to stop relying on cheap goods from China to subsidize our standard of living, which is based on "buy as much stuff as you can cram in your mini-van every day."

But, business demanded free trade.  Well, if we have it, lets at least get something out if it.  Honda, Toyota and GM "banning" Canadian consumers from buying in the US?  you.  Personally, I'd say "fine, don't want Canadian consumers?  Get the hell out of Canada.  Go"  If wasn't in Honda's interest to sell cars here, they would be long gone.  ANY company selling here now wants to be here.

So, until they rethink their policies regarding cross border shopping (I think Yanks should be able to buy car here like nuts of the dollar sinks to $0.50USD and our prices are better) I won't be buying a new car from any car company that has the type of restrictions that Toyota and the rest have in place.

[Cord]

The USA is no more a competitive market for Subaru than Canada.  We are showing that by wathcing US Subaru dealers dying to advertise here and hoping to lure Canadian shoppers.  Why?  If Canadian customers are so few that we have to be charged some much higher price, why on earth would a Subaru dealer in Montana bother?  The reality is that the US market now includes Canada thanks to the dollar parity.

I guess that might be the case if Subaru dealers from Arizona, Tennessee, Kentucky, etc. were all advertising for Canadian buyers. The fact that a few dealerships in border states are doing it hardly means that the US market includes Canada.

I think Yanks should be able to buy car here like nuts of the dollar sinks to $0.50USD and our prices are better

An interesting side effect of Americans buying diesel trucks here a few years ago was that they increased demand of these trucks to such a high level that we had tons of legitimate Canadian customers pissed off. Canadian buyers were told, "no discounts, if you don't want it, we have 5 Americans waiting." Then Ford cracked down, blocked most of the US sales, and the local buyers were happy again.

[johngenx]

Then the dealers in Montana don't compete with those dealers either.  Why don't small states like Montana have high Canadians pricing?  Small market = high prices?  Huh?

[initial_D]

However small market, Montana is still part of the US. Other side of the border.

[johngenx]

However small market, Montana is still part of the US. Other side of the border.

Not according to Free Trade.

[initial_D]

So Montana is Canadian then?  No wonder I see so many of those darn cookhouse restaurant around here.

Then according to Freetrade, I can just go to the US and get a job without the need of a working visa?

[Cord]

Then the dealers in Montana don't compete with those dealers either.  Why don't small states like Montana have high Canadians pricing?  Small market = high prices?  Huh?

Huh? is right.

So Montana is its own market and it's equivalent to the Canadian market? What about northern Montana, another market? What about mainstreet in Billings, another market? I thought you were talking about the US market vs. the Canadian market. 

[johngenx]

So Montana is Canadian then?  No wonder I see so many of those darn cookhouse restaurant around here.

Then according to Freetrade, I can just go to the US and get a job without the need of a working visa?

Not yet, but is it that far off?  As far as goods are concerned, the border counts for less than ever, and that means, as markets go, Canada and the US are no longer very distinct.  Our cars are built to identical standards (why so many can be imported without any mods) and you can bring any US made car across the border very easily.  So, what makes Canada such a distinct market?  Oh, and don't just repeat "different country" because that does not really answer what makes the two markets different enough that Canada has to have higher prices.  Makers do not make Canada-specific models (at least not many do). 

So, why should a Subaru be priced higher in Canada?  Subaru could easily view the North American market as one large market.  They produce nearly identical cars for Canada and the US.  Rail and trucking lines flow over the border unfettered.  The production plant in Indiana only knows that some cars have km odo/speedo and others have mph/mi units.  The cost of production doesn't vary a bit becuase of the destination.  If I can bring a car into Canada with barely and cost, Subaru of Canada can't?

Manufacturers have fought for this condition.  They fought to have the border erased for them.  Now they want it back, but not for them, only for us.

[initial_D]

What you had describe is a more efficient business model for those car makers, enable them to maximize PROFIT for a certain geographical region of the global market. No written gov't rules or regulations (yet) to cap their retailing prices with accordance to actual cost. Able to charge more $$$ for the same product that sells for less somewhere else will increase profit margin, why wouldn't any business do it?

[johngenx]

I agree.  But, if they want to have the border open, then open it.  If business can move products freely across the border, we should be able to shop freely across it too.

Business constantly harps about "competition being good."  Well, then compete.

[tpl]

Quote from: initial_D on Yesterday at 11:06:35 PM
So Montana is Canadian then?  Smiley No wonder I see so many of those darn cookhouse restaurant around here.

Then according to Freetrade, I can just go to the US and get a job without the need of a working visa?
Quote from JohngenX
Not yet, but is it that far off?

Unfortunately NAFTA/FTA  did not allow for freedom of movement of labour. In the NAFTA case probably because of the zillions of Mexicans hovering at the border. I think it is a long way off.

IMHO  complete freedom of movement of labour would be a good thing as it would have to be combined with freedom of residence.  Some would of course complain that it would also mean common immigration standards and general admission to the continent standards... and of course they'd be American standards.   It might, over time lead to political union.  It, IMHO,  might lead to Canada becoming more "blue" and the US becoming more "red"  as US liberals came to Canada and real Canadian conservatives moved south 

[random006]

IMHO  complete freedom of movement of labour would be a good thing as it would have to be combined with freedom of residence.  Some would of course complain that it would also mean common immigration standards and general admission to the continent standards... and of course they'd be American standards.   It might, over time lead to political union.  It, IMHO,  might lead to Canada becoming more "blue" and the US becoming more "red"  as US liberals came to Canada and real Canadian conservatives moved south 

Like this?

[Cord]

Business constantly harps about "competition being good."  Well, then compete.

No, I think it is consumers that constantly harp about that. As they should. Business tries to achieve the opposite. What business doesn't dream of dominating their market? Pretty basic stuff.

Well, then compete.

Compete with who, themselves?

[johngenx]

Oh, I see lots of business leaders harping constantly about gov't regulation hampering their ability to compete.  There is this constant BS rhetoric about letting the marketplace make it's own regulation beause "competition is the only true determiner."  This is sprayed by politicians/business people all the time.  But, of course, they don't really want it.  What they're really asking for is an unregulated market that is nothing more than a monopoly.

So, we MAKE business compete.  They want open borders to have access to consumer markets?  Then lets give consumers open borders to increase choice.

Cord, I don't really understand what you're arguing for.  Is it for Honda/etc. to not sell to Canadian consumers through US dealers depsite being allowed to move their products freely?  Companies have asked that Canada/US be treated as one giant market, so, let it be one.  Well, I guess they only want it that way when it suits them.  Of course they do, and it is self serving, but then why can't consumers engage in it too?

[Cord]

What is see is you and others throwing around a lot of different simplistic and abstract ideas that all boil down to a whole lot of nothing beyond "I wish prices were lower."

How can you bring up the concept of monopolies when talking about the auto industry? Unless you are trying to say the industry as whole has a monopoly? I know you're too smart for that.

Competition. By what standard are you determining that a company should be forced to compete with itself? I mean it's not like luxury car makers were whining about their lack of sales in Canada or were leaving the Canadian market due to Canadians not being able to afford their products. Now that the dollar's rise has caught peoples attention doesn't change the fact that Canadians can still afford to buy those cars. If Canadians choose to be outraged and can manage to not buy them in sufficient numbers then prices will come down or products will disappear from the market.

Lets call a spade a spade and admit that it is mainly the "rich" that are complaining the loudest. It's not like entry level cars are held up as examples of price disparity. I have never heard one word from anyone saying that it is not fair that they can't finance or lease an American Cobalt, Focus, Civic, or Corolla. It is all about cash buyers talking about what are basically luxury goods. How the "boycott" crowd expects the vast majority of the public, that can't afford any type of new car, to be upset that the wealthy can't save $20,000 on an Escalade is beyond me.

The notion that by denying sales in the US, car companies are somehow holding Canadian consumers captive is a non-starter for me. The selection in the Canadian auto market is huge. There is no argument that will convince me that any consumer just has to have a Brand X car and no other will do. Complaining that it is not "fair" that Americans can pay less for a car means no more to me than complaining that Americans earn more money, pay less taxes, or have access to better weather.

[PJungnitsch]

but then why can't consumers engage in it too?

Consumers just have to get noisy enough, which they seem to be doing. The Europeans went through this same baloney years ago. Companies were pricing vehicles with large differentials despite all the free trade stuff the EU was created for.

One response was the research and publishing of vehicle price lists in different EU countries:

"The Commission has published a six-monthly car price report since 1992. This initiative was launched following numerous complaints from consumers about differences in car prices between Member States and obstacles placed in the way of those consumers that wished to buy in another EU country."

Sound familiar?

If people get aware and complain enough companies will be forced to change, and thankfully this seems to be happening.

http://ec.europa.eu/comm/competition/sectors/motor_vehicles/prices/report.html

That type of thing would be useful for us too.