Author Topic: 427lb-ft.... diesel 3-series coming.  (Read 22520 times)

Offline The Mighty Duck

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Re: 427lb-ft.... diesel 3-series coming.
« Reply #40 on: October 12, 2007, 09:17:58 pm »
If the G37 has the same sound system as the G35, then it sucks.  The audio in my mom's G35 is just brutal...  my dad's Dodge Dakota (granted, with premium sound package) sounds better!

But on the rest of your points, Mitlov, quite right.  Still, a few toys might be a fair trade for that sweet twin turbo engine in the 335...  :drool:

Offline G35X

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Re: 427lb-ft.... diesel 3-series coming.
« Reply #41 on: October 13, 2007, 01:40:40 am »
Turbo Kate wrote:
“Even thought the initial cost is always higher than a petrol model, and the fuel is more expensive, they still save money in the long run.”

As for the price of diesel I think UK is an exception.  In other European countries diesel is cheaper than petrol, as much as 15% in France, for example.  In addition, diesel is packed with more energy source (hydrocarbon) per volume than petrol, again as much as 15% more.  Even though the tax incentives on the vehicles are almost gone as Turbo Kate mentioned, still the above two points are the main reasons why economy-minded Europeans buy diesel automobiles.  It is not because diesel vehicles are better performers. (Engine is heavier and the maximum power output per displacement is less.) It is not because its exhaust gas is cleaner. (Actually it is more difficult to clean the diesel emission.)

Because of the demand from the economy-minded consumers European manufacturers spent tremendous amount of money in diesel engine R&D.  Now they have to amortize this investment by selling more diesel automobiles in NA, where diesel fuel is not any cheaper than petrol, and there are no tax incentives for diesel automobiles. So European manufacturers had to take a different strategy in selling diesel automobiles to diesel-allergic (got burned by GM passenger car diesel engines) NA consumers. So now they say “Diesel has more torque” (Yes, but the engine gets out of breath by the time it reaches 4500rpm, from where the real driving fun starts), “Diesel is more economical” (Yes, as long as fuels are sold by the volume and not by the weight or by their energy content) and “Diesel emits less CO2 per mile” (Yes, by the rate of efficiency difference. But it is not really cleaner).

Offline The Mighty Duck

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Re: 427lb-ft.... diesel 3-series coming.
« Reply #42 on: October 13, 2007, 01:58:31 am »
New diesel engines like the Mercedes Bluetech and the upcoming VW diesel are much cleaner than older ones...  not sure how they compare to gas engines, though.

Your comment on how they sell diesel is interesting - if diesels do take off in North America, how long before the oil companies start jacking up the price of fuel with made up reasons?

Offline 2JDM

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Re: 427lb-ft.... diesel 3-series coming.
« Reply #43 on: October 13, 2007, 02:01:16 am »

Your comment on how they sell diesel is interesting - if diesels do take off in North America, how long before the oil companies start jacking up the price of fuel with made up reasons?

This is what I am concerned about. Right now, diesel is cheaper in my area than gas. It can be a big difference, sometimes around 10 cents less a litre!

Oil companies WILL jack up the price for diesel...why wouldn't they?

Offline Triple Bob

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Re: 427lb-ft.... diesel 3-series coming.
« Reply #44 on: October 13, 2007, 11:21:37 am »
Whoa!  That's it!?

I'll admit to never having bothered to check the price of BMW's top trim models because "they're probably way overpriced anyway", but, that's really quite affordable (never thought I'd ever say this).  Not that I can afford one though.

I mean... a S2000 is that price.  A G37 is that price.  Hell, a sport G35 is getting up there.  Even an Acura TL-S is $48k.  Geeze, the Japanese are getting expensive.  If I were shopping in the $45-50,000 range it'd take some real hard convincing to sway me from the BMW.

Keep in mind that BMWs compare with other luxury brands in base price, but BMWs tend to be very stripped compared to their competitors.  A G37 has leather seating power seats, heated seating, a great sound system, metallic paint, etc standard.  These sorts of things are frequently (pricey) options on BMWs.  When you're comparing identically-equipped Infinitis and BMWs, suddenly the BMWs don't seem so cheap after all.

:iagree: I had to add $7K's worth of options to the Z4 just to make sure I could sell it on afterwards...


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Offline dr_spock

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Re: 427lb-ft.... diesel 3-series coming.
« Reply #45 on: October 13, 2007, 11:38:56 am »
New diesel engines like the Mercedes Bluetech and the upcoming VW diesel are much cleaner than older ones...  not sure how they compare to gas engines, though.

Your comment on how they sell diesel is interesting - if diesels do take off in North America, how long before the oil companies start jacking up the price of fuel with made up reasons?

It could also jack up the price of home heating oil.  I think diesel is refined from the same grade of crude to make home heating oil. 

You could go for the VW Touareg R50 with 627 lb-ft of torque at low 2000 rpm.

Offline Triple Bob

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Re: 427lb-ft.... diesel 3-series coming.
« Reply #46 on: October 13, 2007, 11:45:16 am »

Your comment on how they sell diesel is interesting - if diesels do take off in North America, how long before the oil companies start jacking up the price of fuel with made up reasons?

This is what I am concerned about. Right now, diesel is cheaper in my area than gas. It can be a big difference, sometimes around 10 cents less a litre!

Oil companies WILL jack up the price for diesel...why wouldn't they?

True, diesel was a constant $0.25 cheaper than petrol at one point, now it's more expensive, I don't know the exact reasons why the price differential and the tax regimes changed to be honest.  Diesel here is now well over £1 (or $2) per litre.

Offline Iso Octane

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Re: 427lb-ft.... diesel 3-series coming.
« Reply #47 on: October 13, 2007, 11:45:56 am »
Keep in mind that BMWs compare with other luxury brands in base price, but BMWs tend to be very stripped compared to their competitors.  A G37 has leather seating power seats, heated seating, a great sound system, metallic paint, etc standard.  These sorts of things are frequently (pricey) options on BMWs.  When you're comparing identically-equipped Infinitis and BMWs, suddenly the BMWs don't seem so cheap after all.

I suppose.  I just took a quick spin through the website, and the sound system and leather are the only big ticket differences.  For me, neither of those matter very much.  The sheer BMW-ness (lol) more than makes up for it too. 

The audio in my mom's G35 is just brutal...

Oh yes indeed it does.  I'm no audiophile, but "it sound completely flat" is how I like to put it.

Offline Cord

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Re: 427lb-ft.... diesel 3-series coming.
« Reply #48 on: October 13, 2007, 11:55:28 am »

Your comment on how they sell diesel is interesting - if diesels do take off in North America, how long before the oil companies start jacking up the price of fuel with made up reasons?

This is what I am concerned about. Right now, diesel is cheaper in my area than gas. It can be a big difference, sometimes around 10 cents less a litre!

Oil companies WILL jack up the price for diesel...why wouldn't they?

Self-interest has yet to trump the basic concepts of supply and demand. If diesel demand increases then of course its price is likely to increase. A significant increase in diesel demand will hardly require a made-up reason for a price increase.
"If we can just believe something then we don't have to really think for ourselves, do we?" Paul Haggis

Offline 2JDM

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Re: 427lb-ft.... diesel 3-series coming.
« Reply #49 on: October 13, 2007, 12:04:23 pm »

Your comment on how they sell diesel is interesting - if diesels do take off in North America, how long before the oil companies start jacking up the price of fuel with made up reasons?

This is what I am concerned about. Right now, diesel is cheaper in my area than gas. It can be a big difference, sometimes around 10 cents less a litre!

Oil companies WILL jack up the price for diesel...why wouldn't they?

Self-interest has yet to trump the basic concepts of supply and demand. If diesel demand increases then of course its price is likely to increase. A significant increase in diesel demand will hardly require a made-up reason for a price increase.

Thats what I was thinking.  :)

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Re: 427lb-ft.... diesel 3-series coming.
« Reply #50 on: October 13, 2007, 02:38:01 pm »
But on the rest of your points, Mitlov, quite right.  Still, a few toys might be a fair trade for that sweet twin turbo engine in the 335...  :drool:

But if you don't care about luxury features, and you're happy with manually-adjustable vinyl seats and the like, you'd probably be cross-shopping your stripper 335i coupe with the upcoming 370Z, not a G37.  So you'd still end up saving a good chunk of change with the Nissan/Infiniti.

I'm not saying BMWs aren't good cars, but the BMW badge DOES involve a price premium.  Whether the premium is "worth it" depends on you, but I don't think anyone can deny it's there.  And yes, I have driven a 2006 325i, so I'm not just going off of "paper impressions" here.

Offline mmret

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Re: 427lb-ft.... diesel 3-series coming.
« Reply #51 on: October 13, 2007, 08:04:48 pm »
But on the rest of your points, Mitlov, quite right.  Still, a few toys might be a fair trade for that sweet twin turbo engine in the 335...  :drool:

But if you don't care about luxury features, and you're happy with manually-adjustable vinyl seats and the like, you'd probably be cross-shopping your stripper 335i coupe with the upcoming 370Z, not a G37.  So you'd still end up saving a good chunk of change with the Nissan/Infiniti.

I'm not saying BMWs aren't good cars, but the BMW badge DOES involve a price premium.  Whether the premium is "worth it" depends on you, but I don't think anyone can deny it's there.  And yes, I have driven a 2006 325i, so I'm not just going off of "paper impressions" here.

The 350Z/370Z might be "cheap" in the US, but its a $60k car up here. :shake:

EDIT: Before certain members of the "old boys club" get to me, I'm not trying to make comment about CAN / US price disparity. I just don't see why anyone would buy a $60K 350Z when a 335 Coupe starts about the same.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2007, 08:06:42 pm by mmret »
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Offline 2JDM

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Re: 427lb-ft.... diesel 3-series coming.
« Reply #52 on: October 13, 2007, 08:38:41 pm »
But on the rest of your points, Mitlov, quite right.  Still, a few toys might be a fair trade for that sweet twin turbo engine in the 335...  :drool:

But if you don't care about luxury features, and you're happy with manually-adjustable vinyl seats and the like, you'd probably be cross-shopping your stripper 335i coupe with the upcoming 370Z, not a G37.  So you'd still end up saving a good chunk of change with the Nissan/Infiniti.

I'm not saying BMWs aren't good cars, but the BMW badge DOES involve a price premium.  Whether the premium is "worth it" depends on you, but I don't think anyone can deny it's there.  And yes, I have driven a 2006 325i, so I'm not just going off of "paper impressions" here.

EDIT: Before certain members of the "old boys club" get to me, I'm not trying to make comment about CAN / US price disparity. I just don't see why anyone would buy a $60K 350Z when a 335 Coupe starts about the same.

They are different cars, that cater to different markets.

The 335 coupe is more comfortable as a daily driver...its more "civilized" (I am assuming this).


Offline mmret

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Re: 427lb-ft.... diesel 3-series coming.
« Reply #53 on: October 13, 2007, 09:01:08 pm »
But on the rest of your points, Mitlov, quite right.  Still, a few toys might be a fair trade for that sweet twin turbo engine in the 335...  :drool:

But if you don't care about luxury features, and you're happy with manually-adjustable vinyl seats and the like, you'd probably be cross-shopping your stripper 335i coupe with the upcoming 370Z, not a G37.  So you'd still end up saving a good chunk of change with the Nissan/Infiniti.

I'm not saying BMWs aren't good cars, but the BMW badge DOES involve a price premium.  Whether the premium is "worth it" depends on you, but I don't think anyone can deny it's there.  And yes, I have driven a 2006 325i, so I'm not just going off of "paper impressions" here.

EDIT: Before certain members of the "old boys club" get to me, I'm not trying to make comment about CAN / US price disparity. I just don't see why anyone would buy a $60K 350Z when a 335 Coupe starts about the same.

They are different cars, that cater to different markets.

The 335 coupe is more comfortable as a daily driver...its more "civilized" (I am assuming this).



So what exactly does a 350Z compete against then?

In the US, Evo and STI, maybe RX8. But even that is a bit dicey as we're talking 2 vs. 4 doors, AWD vs. RWD, torque vs. no torque (RX8).

Up here.... ??? I personally don't see the appeal of a 350Z at 335 price unless you absolutely, positively, have to look and feel like an edgy, triangle conscious boy racer and slapping a wing on and slamming an E92 doesn't do it for you.

Offline G35X

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Re: 427lb-ft.... diesel 3-series coming.
« Reply #54 on: October 13, 2007, 09:16:54 pm »
Demosthenes X wrote:
“New diesel engines like the Mercedes Bluetech and the upcoming VW diesel are much cleaner than older ones...  not sure how they compare to gas engines, though.”


Since the early 60’s automobile companies have been spending a lot of money in R&D to clean the engine emissions. Starting with the blow-by gas re-circulation, then to Honda’s CVCC and to to-day’s 3-way cat converter gas engine emissions are pretty much cleaned up. Cleaning up diesel emissions started much later and still the industry is struggling to meet the new tougher regulations in NA, Europe and Japan. Unlike gas engines, whose combustion is maintained (by computer controlled closed-loop feedback system) at stoichiometric condition most of the time, diesel engines by nature operate in much wider air/fuel mixture ratio. When idling or under light load the mixture is very lean, and when under heavy load they have tendency of being suffered from oxygen starvation (too rich). Lean mixture means NOX emission, because oxygen remaining in the combustion chamber attaches to nitrogen in high temperature. Too rich condition means emission of unburned hydrocarbon and carbon particulates (soot). The 3-way cat converter does not like oxygen and too much hydrocarbon in the exhaust gas.  Therefore, new exhaust emission cleaning methods are needed for diesel engines, thence the struggle. I do not think they are there yet.

Thanks to Al Gore et al politicians and consumers now are more interested in reducing the amount of carbon emissions, which can only be achieved by burning less fossil fuels. (CO2 by the way is not considered harmful gas in the automotive industry yet.) Diesel engine’s high thermal efficiency is desirable from the standpoint of reducing CO2 emission. So are high-mileage gas/electric hybrids. But the best way is to drive automobiles with smaller displacement engines.  The days of 250HP “family” cars and ego-boosting macho SUV’s are numbered.  To-day we are looking at the last breed of them. 

I think automobile companies known for high-performance luxury cars are very scared now. BMW, for example, cannot live with 335 and V8 M3 alone.  While trying to amortize the heavy R&D spent on cleaning up diesel engine emissions, now they need more money to develop smaller yet “profitable” automobiles.

Mitlov

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Re: 427lb-ft.... diesel 3-series coming.
« Reply #55 on: October 14, 2007, 01:03:39 am »
Interesting observation about pricing.  Once again worth noting that while prices are more expensive in Canada, they're not uniformally more expensive.  It depends on both the manufacturer and the specific model.

In the States, the 350Z starts at $27,900, the G37 coupe starts at $34,250, and the 335i coupe starts at $40,800 (with vinyl seats, no less...expect to pay perhaps $43,000 for a 335i comparably equipped to the G37).  Which is probably why I always rant about overpriced BMWs and people here (who obviously are used to the Canadian pricing spread) jump to BMW's defense.

Offline 2JDM

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Re: 427lb-ft.... diesel 3-series coming.
« Reply #56 on: October 14, 2007, 02:01:11 am »
But on the rest of your points, Mitlov, quite right.  Still, a few toys might be a fair trade for that sweet twin turbo engine in the 335...  :drool:

But if you don't care about luxury features, and you're happy with manually-adjustable vinyl seats and the like, you'd probably be cross-shopping your stripper 335i coupe with the upcoming 370Z, not a G37.  So you'd still end up saving a good chunk of change with the Nissan/Infiniti.

I'm not saying BMWs aren't good cars, but the BMW badge DOES involve a price premium.  Whether the premium is "worth it" depends on you, but I don't think anyone can deny it's there.  And yes, I have driven a 2006 325i, so I'm not just going off of "paper impressions" here.


EDIT: Before certain members of the "old boys club" get to me, I'm not trying to make comment about CAN / US price disparity. I just don't see why anyone would buy a $60K 350Z when a 335 Coupe starts about the same.

They are different cars, that cater to different markets.

The 335 coupe is more comfortable as a daily driver...its more "civilized" (I am assuming this).



So what exactly does a 350Z compete against then?

In the US, Evo and STI, maybe RX8. But even that is a bit dicey as we're talking 2 vs. 4 doors, AWD vs. RWD, torque vs. no torque (RX8).

Up here.... ??? I personally don't see the appeal of a 350Z at 335 price unless you absolutely, positively, have to look and feel like an edgy, triangle conscious boy racer and slapping a wing on and slamming an E92 doesn't do it for you.


Hmm, there aren't many. is the Z4 close enough?  ??? S2000, but different power wise.

350Z starts at about 50k CDN, top of the line Mustang GT is 40k, Z4 starts at 54k, S2000 is 51k.

Offline The Mighty Duck

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Re: 427lb-ft.... diesel 3-series coming.
« Reply #57 on: October 14, 2007, 02:10:21 am »
The base model 350Z is actually more expensive than the base G coupe in Canada...  $49 798 vs. $47 350.  ???  Mitlov, how many 350s do you see on the road?  I'd imagine quite a few, relative to the G?  Up here, you barely see the 350 because the G is a nicer car for the same, or less, money.  It's really very strange, as I've no idea what Infiniti/Nissan was thinking when the set the pricing the way they have.  Some of our dealers are Nissan/Infiniti - it would be interesting to look at the cars side by side and ask why the Nissan costs more than the Infiniti...

Offline initial_D

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Re: 427lb-ft.... diesel 3-series coming.
« Reply #58 on: October 14, 2007, 02:44:42 am »
But on the rest of your points, Mitlov, quite right.  Still, a few toys might be a fair trade for that sweet twin turbo engine in the 335...  :drool:

But if you don't care about luxury features, and you're happy with manually-adjustable vinyl seats and the like, you'd probably be cross-shopping your stripper 335i coupe with the upcoming 370Z, not a G37.  So you'd still end up saving a good chunk of change with the Nissan/Infiniti.

I'm not saying BMWs aren't good cars, but the BMW badge DOES involve a price premium.  Whether the premium is "worth it" depends on you, but I don't think anyone can deny it's there.  And yes, I have driven a 2006 325i, so I'm not just going off of "paper impressions" here.

Would rather drive a used BMW than a new Z. Used Infiniti is even much better priced.

Mitlov

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Re: 427lb-ft.... diesel 3-series coming.
« Reply #59 on: October 14, 2007, 03:29:23 am »
The base model 350Z is actually more expensive than the base G coupe in Canada...  $49 798 vs. $47 350.  ???  Mitlov, how many 350s do you see on the road?  I'd imagine quite a few, relative to the G?  Up here, you barely see the 350 because the G is a nicer car for the same, or less, money.  It's really very strange, as I've no idea what Infiniti/Nissan was thinking when the set the pricing the way they have.  Some of our dealers are Nissan/Infiniti - it would be interesting to look at the cars side by side and ask why the Nissan costs more than the Infiniti...

G sedans outnumber 350Zs, but 350Zs outnumber G coupes maybe five to one.  Things might be different if I was in a major metropolitan area where people had more cash and luxury brands had more presence.  Overall, 350Zs are pretty common, but not nearly as common as Mustang GTs (but I live in a very domestic-car-oriented area).