Topic: CD Article: 2008 Dodge Avenger R/T

[Greg B.]

I wonder when the recall for causing eye damage to those who see it will happen... 

[The Mighty Duck]

From what I hear, about the same time you start contributing something beneficial to our forum.

[Greg B.]

From what I hear, about the same time you start contributing something beneficial to our forum.

Now don't start being testy in addition to being design-challeged... 

[quadzilla]

From what I hear, about the same time you start contributing something beneficial to our forum.

Now don't start being testy in addition to being design-challeged... 

Ok Greg...you may find yourself funny but I don't think everybody else does.  Just because you find it ugly that doesn't mean it is ugly.  Heck, if somebody calls you stupid does that mean you are. 

Get over it and say something constructive instead of its ugly.  We got it, you think its ugly.  Move on. You are starting to sound like a troll.

[Greg B.]

Ok Greg...you may find yourself funny but I don't think everybody else does.  Just because you find it ugly that doesn't mean it is ugly.  Heck, if somebody calls you stupid does that mean you are. 

Get over it and say something constructive instead of its ugly.  We got it, you think its ugly.  Move on. You are starting to sound like a troll.

Now wait a minute here. I was in the middle of a generally friendly and lighthearted discussion with my testy Greek friend. You seem to disagree with my point of view. Fine. But suddenly you jump in and accuse me of being a troll???

That is over the line, Mr. Quadzilla.

[avtoller]

Greg, go back over the total of your postings - I did. The majority basically say "That's ugly" or some other negative comment. Quad said that you are starting to SOUND like a troll - and I find it hard to disagree. Please prove that you are not by adding more constructive posts to your account.

[The Mighty Duck]

Ok Greg...you may find yourself funny but I don't think everybody else does.  Just because you find it ugly that doesn't mean it is ugly.  Heck, if somebody calls you stupid does that mean you are. 

Get over it and say something constructive instead of its ugly.  We got it, you think its ugly.  Move on. You are starting to sound like a troll.

[Greg B.]

Greg, go back over the total of your postings - I did. The majority basically say "That's ugly" or some other negative comment. Quad said that you are starting to SOUND like a troll - and I find it hard to disagree. Please prove that you are not by adding more constructive posts to your account.

I don't think I need to prove anything to you or anyone else here, Mr. AVT. Far be it from me to cast aspersions, but when I look at the post count of you, Demo and Quad, it starts to feel a little bit like I've walked into the Old Boys Club and failed to give the secret handshake or spilled the salad dressing on the oriental rug. Too bad; last time I checked, this was a public forum and there is no way I have violated any of the terms of use.

But just to be sure, I did go back. I posted about the look of the car; I posted about changing my opinion about some of the posters who don't think it was bad-looking; I posted that sales numbers mean nothing to whether a design is good or not; I posted that there are generally accepted standards for good vs bad design.

Now that I see the overwhelming evidence that I've committed such heinous crimes here I can understand the error of my ways. The big mistake here seems to be to disagree with the opinions of the high-post-count types who apparently think this is their own personal sandbox. I think there is a way to debate questions without accusing people of being trolls or otherwise being disagreeable. Everywhere else I go on the net that seems never to be a problem. Funny that here, it suddenly is. Fascinating.

Get over yourselves.

[2JDM]

 

ANYWAYS,

so...Chrysler. More recalls. Welcome to the Automotive business Cerberus. 

[quadzilla]

Hello again Greg, It seems that you are not having a fun time here at CTC are you.  I guess we are just a bunch of old fudy duddies that have our own little club that prefer to discuss cars with logic and facts than opinions. Maybe you are just not a fan of Chrysler or maybe you bought one and it rusted out on you but every single one of your posts sound negetive to me. And by going with your logic they must be negative to everybody (you get a gold star if you can understand that btw).

Just so others that come along can save some time I decided to put all your post together to make it easier than scrolling through three pages of posts. I applogize in advance if I missed any but I did copy/past to not misquote you. Oh, I've also bolded the parts I found negative which means they are also negative to everybody else.

Post 1:
Another Chrysler product that has been beaten unmercifully with the ugly stick. They really need to purge their design department and start over again.

Post 2:
Man, I'm starting to question my formerly positive opinion of you folks.  Wink

No question, the interior is a real budgie bird (cheep cheep cheep) but you guys LIKE the exterior? If the Charger is like a lounge lizard type with slicked back hair and gold chains on an open-neck shirt, this thing looks like his kid brother trying to pull off the same effect -- i.e. ridiculous.

I remain firm in my belief that Chrysler design needs a total purge. Either that or they need to stop taking whatever drugs they're on.

Post 3:
The real equation is: are there enough design-challenged buyers out there willing to buy this car (and it equally ugly Chrysler-badged cousin) to make it profitable enough for Chrysler to keep it afloat?

Post 4:
GM sold a bunch of Azteks. Back in the dark ages Datsun sold a ton of B-210s and F-10s, a.k.a. the atomic cockroach as named by Car & Driver. Does that make them good designs in your lexicon?

Bad design is bad design, and sales is not a measure of it.

Post 5:
Don't be ridiculous. What I AM saying is that there are people who will buy an ugly car regardless of how it looks. Maybe they don't care about the looks. Maybe THEY don't think it's ugly. Who knows?

But regardless of how many sell, it's still ugly.

Post 6:
Wrong again. You think it's not ugly. Fine. I'm not trying to convince anyone. But there are generally accepted standards for what is a good design and what is not, and this one fails the test. Get over it yourself.

Post 7:
I wonder when the recall for causing eye damage to those who see it will happen.

Post 8:
Now don't start being testy in addition to being design-challeged.

That brings us up to date with post #9...

Now wait a minute here. I was in the middle of a generally friendly and lighthearted discussion with my testy Greek friend. You seem to disagree with my point of view. Fine. But suddenly you jump in and accuse me of being a troll???

That is over the line, Mr. Quadzilla.

Well...if you read my last post it said and I quote "You are starting to sound like a troll." which I belive is different than calling you a troll. So I did try giving you a chance. 

Now in post number 9 you did make some great points.

The big mistake here seems to be to disagree with the opinions of the high-post-count types who apparently think this is their own personal sandbox. I think there is a way to debate questions without accusing people of being trolls or otherwise being disagreeable. Everywhere else I go on the net that seems never to
 be a problem. Funny that here, it suddenly is. Fascinating.

I find this part the funniest as I find this forum the most civilazed and the members write valuable information about the Canadian (and world) car market(s). I also visit other forums and none I have found even come close to this. They are filled in banter and childish talk.

You are welcomed to stay here but like you said, it is a clicky group. If you don't like it or not interested in playing in our sandbox, why bother sticking around?

[Mitlov]

I don't think I need to prove anything to you or anyone else here, Mr. AVT. Far be it from me to cast aspersions, but when I look at the post count of you, Demo and Quad, it starts to feel a little bit like I've walked into the Old Boys Club and failed to give the secret handshake or spilled the salad dressing on the oriental rug. Too bad; last time I checked, this was a public forum and there is no way I have violated any of the terms of use.

But just to be sure, I did go back. I posted about the look of the car; I posted about changing my opinion about some of the posters who don't think it was bad-looking; I posted that sales numbers mean nothing to whether a design is good or not; I posted that there are generally accepted standards for good vs bad design.

Now that I see the overwhelming evidence that I've committed such heinous crimes here I can understand the error of my ways. The big mistake here seems to be to disagree with the opinions of the high-post-count types who apparently think this is their own personal sandbox. I think there is a way to debate questions without accusing people of being trolls or otherwise being disagreeable. Everywhere else I go on the net that seems never to be a problem. Funny that here, it suddenly is. Fascinating.

Get over yourselves.

Greg,

If I recall from previous threads, AVT thinks that modern Dodge designs look like ass.  Nobody here is going to flame you for saying that you think that Dodges are ugly. 

People WILL flame you for saying that anyone who disagrees with you is "challenged."  And people WILL flame you for saying it's ugly, and then saying it's ugly, and then saying it's ugly, and then saying it's ugly, and then saying it's ugly, and then saying it's ugly, and then saying it's ugly, and then saying it's ugly.

[avtoller]

Basically I agree with your post, Mitlov, but I don't believe I've ever said that "modern Dodge designs look like ass" ( ), but I do consider them generally unattractive. 

[The Mighty Duck]

Mitlov has hit the nail on the head.  Saying a design is ugly: fine.  We're all entitled to an opinion, and design is subjective.  Some like it, some do not.  But saying another poster is "challenged" for liking a design is another matter entirely.  We "old hats" are something of a clique, something of a fellowship, and something of a friendship.  Calling one of the members of that group "challenged" because they do not agree with you is likely to inspire the dispassion of others.

For example, AVT does not like the current designs coming out of Chrsyler Corp. as I do.  But I do not consider him challenged for thinking so, I accept his opinion, and his right to post it.  And he likewise accepts my opinion, and my right to post it.  We do not anger one another because we recognize differing opinions on a subjective issue like visual design.

But repeating "it's ugly, and I don't care what you think, it's still ugly", is going to earn our ire.  We have accepted that you feel a certain way, some of us disagree.  There is no need for you to continue trying to convince us it is ugly, and doing so only makes you appear to be a troll, seeking to inspire discord.  Which is lame, and we don't subscribe to.  So either contribute something meaningful, or don't contribute at all (imo)!

[Greg B.]

Mitlov has hit the nail on the head.  Saying a design is ugly: fine.  We're all entitled to an opinion, and design is subjective.  Some like it, some do not.  But saying another poster is "challenged" for liking a design is another matter entirely.  We "old hats" are something of a clique, something of a fellowship, and something of a friendship.  Calling one of the members of that group "challenged" because they do not agree with you is likely to inspire the dispassion of others.

To beat this dead horse one last time, I used the "testy and design-challenged"  -- with a smiley -- phrase in reference to one of your posts because I didn't want to call you "testy and rude", which your response certainly was. So if it makes you feel better I'll retract the first, drop the smiley, and replace it with the second, which is a better representation anyway.

Okay? Let's move on.

[inco]

Great idea. Lets do that. 

[Mitlov]

Basically I agree with your post, Mitlov, but I don't believe I've ever said that "modern Dodge designs look like ass" ( ), but I do consider them generally unattractive. 

I didn't mean that to be a direct quote.  I just seem to recall that you're not at all pleased by the look of the Caliber, the Charger, etc--particuarly the grills and high beltlines.

[Brig]

Let's pull a Groundhog Day and start the entire conversation over in James' review of the Avenger.     Greg, please start us off, since you're so very adept at repeating yourself.   

[Greg B.]

Let's pull a Groundhog Day and start the entire conversation over in James' review of the Avenger.     Greg, please start us off, since you're so very adept at repeating yourself.   

No idea what you're talking about, I wasn't part of the Greek chorus singing in the wings. 

[Mitlov]

Since Greg won't, I will.

Charger RT AWD: $30,895.
Legacy GT: $40,295.

Now, maybe the Legacy will be a bit more fun to drive (I won't go on my rant about Legacies right here), but that price difference is hard to ignore.

[mmret]

Since Greg won't, I will.

Charger RT AWD: $30,895.
Legacy GT: $40,295.

Now, maybe the Legacy will be a bit more fun to drive (I won't go on my rant about Legacies right here), but that price difference is hard to ignore.

Maybe we can segue into a Canada vs. US Pricing debate with this truly classic example?