Topic: How they age

[Snowman]

CR Report on how manufactures fair with age:

Using data from the 2006 survey, we compared how the model lines from the major manufacturers fared as their vehicles age over 10 years using the average problems per 100 vehicles. The average combines all subsidiary brands. For example, Hyundai incorporates the Kia nameplate and Volkswagen includes Audi, Toyota includes Lexus and Scion, Honda includes Acura, Nissan includes Infiniti, and so on. American manufacturers include only their domestic brands.

•   The Japanese manufacturers are more reliable, on average, and continue to age more gracefully. Older Koreans are problematic while newer models have improved.

•   American manufacturers still have not closed the gap between them and the Asians. Ford has been, and continues to be the most reliable among the domestic manufacturers for older vehicles.

•   The European manufacturers continue to lag behind. Mercedes-Benz has fallen off in recent years while older Volkswagens are the most problematic.

[initial_D]

Toyota is leading, Honda is 2nd. But in the Euro built side, VW is leading the other way ... that data cannot be right, shouldn't VW's number just 0.03333 percent behind Toyota in this reliability stuff? 

[safristi]

Reverend SHARPTON SNOWIE is reading from HIS BIBLE....Oooh yee of LITTLE FAITH

[Mitlov]

Toyota fares very well.  But by my reading of that chart, Ford is equivalent to Mazda and barely behind Honda, the second-most-reliable Japanese manufacturer.  Ford is well ahead of Hyundai.  For 4-7 year old cars, Ford is as good as Subaru.  So at least as Ford is concerned, I wouldn't agree that Ford has not closed the gap between it and "the Asians."  GM and Chrysler are different stories.

Also, Ford is equivalent to BMW, the most reliable European manufacturer.  Interesting that Ford takes so much c*** for its reliability and BMW takes almost none.

[mdxtasy]

Without going into specifics or what the problems have been, the ratings are of little concern for me. 

[dr_spock]

I think I'm in trouble.   My VW is reaching 10 years...

[mmret]

I think I'm in trouble.   My VW is reaching 10 years...

The inherent cuteness and inoffensiveness of the Bug will allow it to withstand any statistical trends.

[mar1990]

Things should improve for my crappy Ford windstar. Its hit 8 years and the graph appears to level out...if you squint....

From the graph, there appears that there must be quite a few windstars with 0 problems, as I have had more than 120/100 or 1.2 problems with mine... statistically speaking of course.

[avtoller]

Things should improve for my crappy Ford windstar. Its hit 8 years and the graph appears to level out...if you squint....

By that age, there are only a few left - the best of the best - thus the apparent "leveling out". (Sort of kidding.) 

[Trainman]

Older Koreans are problematic while newer models have improved

Huh?  How can they say that when they do not have enough data to make that kind of statement?  The Korean products have not been around long enough in total, so why single out the "newer" ones?

As MdX notes, without knowing the data set and what makes it up, a pretty useless survey.

[Snowman]

Older Koreans are problematic while newer models have improved

Huh?  How can they say that when they do not have enough data to make that kind of statement?  The Korean products have not been around long enough in total, so why single out the "newer" ones?

As MdX notes, without knowing the data set and what makes it up, a pretty useless survey.

In CR we trust 

[Ex-airbalancer]

Older Koreans are problematic while newer models have improved

Huh?  How can they say that when they do not have enough data to make that kind of statement?  The Korean products have not been around long enough in total, so why single out the "newer" ones?

As MdX notes, without knowing the data set and what makes it up, a pretty useless survey.

In CR we trust 

In CR, you trust

[mdxtasy]

Older Koreans are problematic while newer models have improved

Huh?  How can they say that when they do not have enough data to make that kind of statement?  The Korean products have not been around long enough in total, so why single out the "newer" ones?

As MdX notes, without knowing the data set and what makes it up, a pretty useless survey.

In CR we trust 

In CR, you trust

 

[ktm525]

Two thoughts. I shouls sell my Volvo.

Why did Hyundai only go out 7 years. Does the graph go straight vertical at that point. or do they just cease to exist?

[safristi]

Do TRUS"T"S still HOLD UP yer SACK................

[vz64]

Older Koreans are problematic while newer models have improved

Huh?  How can they say that when they do not have enough data to make that kind of statement?  The Korean products have not been around long enough in total, so why single out the "newer" ones?

As MdX notes, without knowing the data set and what makes it up, a pretty useless survey.

If you have reliability data for a few years back, you can see if there is a trend to have fewer problems; then you can predict if the newer model will be more reliable in 10 yrs than the older one. The prediction can be very accurate.

[johngenx]

I won't spend a ton of time quibbling over little bits of each graph.  What is tells me is...

1. If you want to buy and keep something, your best odds of getting a car that will give you the fewest problems as it ages comes from the major Japan-based brands.
2. The "rest of the world" is actually pretty close to each other.
3. German cars have a highly inverse relationship between reliability and price.  They charge more for their brand, but give you more problems.  They perhaps misunderstood "bang for your buck."
4. If your car brand starts with the letter "V" you're doomed.  Volkswagon and Volvo are charging hard for the bottom, though I suspect as MB's 2001+ models age, the will easily overtake everyone else and they will be able to proclaim "we are the MOST troublesome brand!  Yah!"

[safristi]

"V"agina MONO_LOGUE.................hope yer getttin some.............X_John

[Slow_lane]

All cars look great on the showroom floor. There are some North American cars that would interest me if I had any faith in how they would hold up over the long term. I plan to keep my cars for a minimum of 10 years so how they hold up is important.

In the past I have seen Chrysler vans and Neons with terrible paint failures. I have seen paint coming off in sheets the size of dinner plates. I saw the same on GM Corsica's and on front fenders of Fords escorts.

You would think they would work to address this if they really wanted to compete.

Now years later I am still seeing evidence of poor quality. I am seeing some pretty recent GM products (Ie Malibu's) with major paint failures. My Neighbour's 2002 Buick Century 3.1 engine's valves tick like crazy. On his 2002 the trim at bottom of door windows has failed. The rubber covering on the trim pieces is completely finished and is failing off. I have seen other Centurys with this problem.  So he is driving a car that looks and sounds old when it is only 5 years old.

On the other hand my 7 and 10 year old Honda products still look and run like new and might be worth more than his 5 year old Century.

Until I see North American products hold up in the long term I will never buy one no matter how nice the design might be. That means it will be at least 10 years before I would even consider a North American car.

I suspect people that buy North American do not look at long term ownership or factor in re-sale values.

PS: I also find VW products looking old and tired before their time.

[Paul Allen]

All cars look great on the showroom floor. There are some North American cars that would interest me if I had any faith in how they would hold up over the long term. I plan to keep my cars for a minimum of 10 years so how they hold up is important.

In the past I have seen Chrysler vans and Neons with terrible paint failures. I have seen paint coming off in sheets the size of dinner plates. I saw the same on GM Corsica's and on front fenders of Fords escorts.

You would think they would work to address this if they really wanted to compete.

Now years later I am still seeing evidence of poor quality. I am seeing some pretty recent GM products (Ie Malibu's) with major paint failures. My Neighbour's 2002 Buick Century 3.1 engine's valves tick like crazy. On his 2002 the trim at bottom of door windows has failed. The rubber covering on the trim pieces is completely finished and is failing off. I have seen other Centurys with this problem.  So he is driving a car that looks and sounds old when it is only 5 years old.

On the other hand my 7 and 10 year old Honda products still look and run like new and might be worth more than his 5 year old Century.

Until I see North American products hold up in the long term I will never buy one no matter how nice the design might be. That means it will be at least 10 years before I would even consider a North American car.

I suspect people that buy North American do not look at long term ownership or factor in re-sale values.

PS: I also find VW products looking old and tired before their time.

Some of what you mentioned is probably due to poor maintenance.  If you want to keep a car for 10 years you have to maintain it properly and keep it clean.  A liitle wax on the paint once in a while doesn't hurt either.  I just turned in a 2003 PT Cruiser after a 4 year lease and it looked as good as anything on the dealers lot.  I get my cars serviced regularly, oil change every 5000 km.  I wash it once a week, weather permitting, and wax it at least twice a year.  A lot of people these days lease a car and don't do anything to it, no service, little or no washes, and at the end of the lease it is a pile of junk.  It doesn't matter who manufactures the car, it will not stand up to that kind of treatment.