Topic: 20-25K used cars

[msian]

Wait Shnak, if you like heavy feeling cars, you DO NOT LIKE SPORTS SEDANS.  Those are conflicting.  You like luxury vehicles That is different.

A sports sedan MUST be light and nimble, as it is attempting to replicate the sports car feel with the practicality of a sedan.

What IS the criteria for defining a sports sedan anyway?
Car and Driver's 10Best has separate categories for Sports Sedan and Luxury Sports Sedan.

[wing]

Depends on which model.  You liked the 325, I thought it was poo.  It was dog slow and felt cumbersome.

The 330i feels lighter for some reason and has the power to scoot you along.  That's a sports sedan.  Many mistake the entire 3 series line, but it's really only the 330i and M3 that I would consider a sports sedan.

Also BMW's weren't always heavy feeling, they use to be light and nimble, now that they are more badge than substance they are becoming heavier and heavier.  True enthusiasts tend to love the older BMW's more than the newer ones that are more style than driving fun.

[quadzilla]

This is what I think and its not much today....

1) If the average driver was to drive the cars around the track, I'm sure their lap times would be within seconds of each other.
2) If the above average driver was to drive these cars around the track, I'm sure their lap times would be within seconds of each other.
Until you track these cars against time, does any of this matter?  Peoples lack of driving skill can/will kill any possibility of sporty in any of these cars!  I could drive a mini-van around a track faster than my g/f in a Miata.

What one person thinks is sporty, another person may not.  I think we've done the "What is sporty/luxury/fast/slow/good/reliable treads before".

So what % of cars under 40G are even RWD?  Lexus IS, BMW 323, Mazda 8/MX-5, Mustang, then some used cars.

Then you have the AWD Subarus.

As far as the FWDs go I think its easily the TSX, Mazda 6,3 then the others.

I had a friend that owned a Civic drive my P5 once.  Her complaints were, rough ride, darty steering, brakes grab too quick, stick shift feels too connected and doesn't rev really high.  I found it funny to say the least.

[wing]

Quad, "Rough Ride, darty steering, brakes grab too quick (is that possible?), stick shift feels too connected (HUH?), doesn't rev"

That is funny those are AWESOME traits of a drivers car... except maybe the engine thing.  I want rough ride if I want sporty, I want brakes that instantly grab, darty steering is a must it means it is faster and more direct, and I want a shifter that feels connected.

Maybe I should drive a P5

[msian]

What one person thinks is sporty, another person may not.  I think we've done the "What is sporty/luxury/fast/slow/good/reliable treads before".

Exactly. It is very subjective.
However, the current trend seems to be favouring "Sports TOURING sedans" IMHO.
Which I think is why Porsche is introducing the Cayman to "get back" into the sports car world...the 911 is getting too bloated and is more suited as a grand tourer now. I guess it is all part of the process of growing up.

The problem with building a "sports sedan" that is light and nimble and emulate the "sports car" side of things will not sell well to the general public.

[msian]

That is funny those are AWESOME traits of a drivers car... except maybe the engine thing.  I want rough ride if I want sporty, I want brakes that instantly grab, darty steering is a must it means it is faster and more direct, and I want a shifter that feels connected.

That is the "problem". We (driving enthusiasts) represent a relatively small percentage of car buying people.

[Shnak]

Depends on which model.  You liked the 325, I thought it was poo.  It was dog slow and felt cumbersome.

The 330i feels lighter for some reason and has the power to scoot you along.  That's a sports sedan.  Many mistake the entire 3 series line, but it's really only the 330i and M3 that I would consider a sports sedan.

Also BMW's weren't always heavy feeling, they use to be light and nimble, now that they are more badge than substance they are becoming heavier and heavier.  True enthusiasts tend to love the older BMW's more than the newer ones that are more style than driving fun.

Well like Snowman, you prefer light and nimble vehicles, I prefer heavier and vault-like vehicles. German vehicles are engineered to drive all day long at 250kph on the Autobahn, and it really shows in how they feel. Ultra stable at any speed. And saying that the 325 is a dog is a huge exageration IMO... if that is a dog, that means that 99% of the cars on the roads is a dog too.

[Snowman]

Depends on which model.  You liked the 325, I thought it was poo.  It was dog slow and felt cumbersome.

The 330i feels lighter for some reason and has the power to scoot you along.  That's a sports sedan.  Many mistake the entire 3 series line, but it's really only the 330i and M3 that I would consider a sports sedan.

Also BMW's weren't always heavy feeling, they use to be light and nimble, now that they are more badge than substance they are becoming heavier and heavier.  True enthusiasts tend to love the older BMW's more than the newer ones that are more style than driving fun.

Well like Snowman, you prefer light and nimble vehicles, I prefer heavier and vault-like vehicles. German vehicles are engineered to drive all day long at 250kph on the Autobahn, and it really shows in how they feel. Ultra stable at any speed. And saying that the 325 is a dog is a huge exageration IMO... if that is a dog, that means that 99% of the cars on the roads is a dog too.

Yep, 99% of the people on the road are not driving enthusiasts.

[Shnak]

Depends on which model.  You liked the 325, I thought it was poo.  It was dog slow and felt cumbersome.

The 330i feels lighter for some reason and has the power to scoot you along.  That's a sports sedan.  Many mistake the entire 3 series line, but it's really only the 330i and M3 that I would consider a sports sedan.

Also BMW's weren't always heavy feeling, they use to be light and nimble, now that they are more badge than substance they are becoming heavier and heavier.  True enthusiasts tend to love the older BMW's more than the newer ones that are more style than driving fun.

Well like Snowman, you prefer light and nimble vehicles, I prefer heavier and vault-like vehicles. German vehicles are engineered to drive all day long at 250kph on the Autobahn, and it really shows in how they feel. Ultra stable at any speed. And saying that the 325 is a dog is a huge exageration IMO... if that is a dog, that means that 99% of the cars on the roads is a dog too.

Yep, 99% of the people on the road are not driving enthusiasts.

So... I guess mdxtacy is not a driving enthusiast with his 120hp BMW 318? Or even myself with my 100hp Jetta? I love driving... but because I don't drive a 500hp monster, I'm not a driving enthusiasts?

A BMW 325 might feel like a dog compared to a S2000, but then, 99.9999% of the cars feel like dogs compared to a S2000. But compared to a TSX or Audi 2.0T, the 325 doesn't feel like a dog at all. It feels just right, and is an excellent vehicle for the price.

[quadzilla]

Wing: Give Tortoise a call, he lives in Ottawa and has a manual P5, I'm sure he would trade cars.  Heck so would I, did you want to test a 6-wagon.  Its pretty sporty for a wagon.

What is funnier though is how much she appreciated those traits when we almost got run off the road by a semi.  I still feel that the P5 was more sporty than the current Mz3, the 3 just has a better engine.  After driving the 3 I only wanted to transplant then engine into my P5.  Maybe I'm biased?

Shnak:  99% are driving enthusiasts so that leaves room for MDX and a few others.  But I guess we now have to define what is an enthusiast?  Somebody that tracks/autox's their car is a good starter.

[Shnak]

And here I thought that an auto enthusiast was someone that liked driving and talking about cars, no matter which cars.

IMO, BMWs (any of them) are the definition of sports sedans. A little bit of luxury, class, look, refinement, and a whole lot of fun.

[safristi]

Peep_HOLES who need PEEP-HOLES are the luckiest PEEP_HOLES inna WORLD!@!!! ...

[quadzilla]

I was taking to somebody about home theatres one day when a third person came along and jumped into the conversation .
They said that they also had a HT.  So I said that is great and what did they have/use.

A tv that had the words "Home Theatre" on the front and they were being serious.

I guess it just doesn't apply to cars.

So what is an enthusiast?  My Mom likes to drive cars and she will talk about them but she is hardly an enthusiast.

[Shnak]

So what is an enthusiast?  My Mom likes to drive cars and she will talk about them but she is hardly an enthusiast.

enthusiast: a person having a strong liking for something

Looks like your mom is an enthusiast!

[quadzilla]

^^^^^^ 

[Arthur Dent]

I still feel that the P5 was more sporty than the current Mz3, the 3 just has a better engine.  After driving the 3 I only wanted to transplant then engine into my P5.  Maybe I'm biased?

that was my impression too. I actually passed on buying a P5 since the engine was a bit lame. The 3 seems bigger and softer but its engine in a P5 would have been just about the perfect compact runabout.

[mdxtasy]

So... I guess mdxtacy is not a driving enthusiast with his 120hp BMW 318?

Huh?  How'd I get dragged into this?  And it's 138hp and it's a 318is.   

[Shnak]

So... I guess mdxtacy is not a driving enthusiast with his 120hp BMW 318?

Huh?  How'd I get dragged into this?  And it's 138hp and it's a 318is.   

Snowman (or was it wing? I don't remember) seemed to imply that anything will less than like 400hp was a dog. So I immediately thought of you and your little BMW...   

[tortoise]

Maybe I should drive a P5

Well sir, I happen to know a P5 owner that would happily exchange cars!

EDIT: HAHAHA - I  wrote this before I saw that Quad have volunteered my ride!!

[ghost]

in terms of souless cars, VW models come to mind. Maybe except for the GTi.