Topic: 20-25K used cars

[msian]

Mazda's suspensions are great, they are soft when you want them to be soft yet firm when you want sporty.

IMHO, BMW has been doing that for many years

[msian]

this is the g35 sepcs
Silver ext., black leather int., heated p/seats, auto., am/fm CD, cruise, pw, pdl, pm, remote entry, mag wheels, Zenon lights. Bal. of fact. warr. 68,000 km. $24,600.

That price seems low even taking the mileage into account.
Maybe I am just out of touch with the current market conditions.

[Shnak]

Mazda's suspensions are great, they are soft when you want them to be soft yet firm when you want sporty.  I really love the mazda suspension on the 3 6 and 8.

I'm  not saying they're bad suspensions. I'm saying that when I drove a Mazda3 and 6, I didn't find anything exciting about them... engines were loud, unrefined and not smooth. Same with their automatic transmission, not smooth at all, but I think the guy wants a MT anyways. I just don't understand why so many people like the Mazda3 and 6... they did nothing for me. When I drove the Golf TDI, I knew immediately that I wanted it. And when I drove the Mazda3 and 6, I thought to myself "what's the big deal?". Anyways, just not for me.

[wing]

Your not into to sporty than.  Loud engine is part of sporty  

The Mazda's also have very direct steering which makes it feel sporty.

[Shnak]

Your not into to sporty than.  Loud engine is part of sporty  

The Mazda's also have very direct steering which makes it feel sporty.

There's a difference between great sounding "loud engine" and harsh and unrefined "loud engine".  I wouldn't mind driving Honda's engines at 6000rpm all day long because they sound great at those speeds. But Mazda's I4 engines do not.

And I didn't like how the Mazda6 I4 2.3 didn't feel torquy at all. Might be their 4-speed automatic transmission that was sucking all the life out of it (likely), but a 4-cylinder Accord with auto transmission felt like a V6 compared to the Mazda6. Transmission makes such a big difference.

Anyways, I doubt the original poster would even consider a Mazda 3 or 6 since he's looking at a G35... not in the same class at all.

[davidm]

Can't believe I'm saying this, but I mostly agree with Shnak on this.

Mazda builds fabulous, very soulfull (is that a word?) cars with very clear purposes - the Miata and RX-8 being the obvious ones.  I haven't driven the 3 so I'll stay out of that, but the Mazda6 is pretty boring.  Most interesting of the boring class of Altima, Camry, Accord, etc., but I'm not interested in the tallest midget.

WRX - tonnes of soul, but again a purpose built machine.

The BMW contenders I believe are the IS300 (haven't driven the 250/350 but they look nice), TSX, G35, and Legacy GT.  IS300 has loads of character (like it or not), TSX was a very impressive drive (manual tranny alone is enough to love that car), G35 opinion on specs, and the Legacy GT is like a finally grown up WRX (or as I call it, the WRX for people who have to look nice at work).

Won't go into the VW thing, my Mark III Jetta K2 was fine (looked brilliant inside and out, drove like poop once I grew up and learned how a real car drives), but the bulk of the character came from it's charming electrical foibles.

Not sure I made my point in this ramble.  Guess I'm saying the Germans build the best sports sedan and cars with flair, the Japanes build brilliant toasters, or when they put their mind to it, they build the ultimate best-of-breed tool that appeals to a limited crowd (nothing in between which is really what the German products are).

[Shnak]

I couldn't have expressed it better myself. 

[Snowman]

This is what Shnak said:
“most Japanese are prone to be boring to drive.”
I do not agree with this, and your examples back this up. So Dave, what are you agreeing to?

[Shnak]

This is what Shnak said:
“most Japanese are prone to be boring to drive.”
I do not agree with this, and your examples back this up. So Dave, what are you agreeing to?

How do my examples back you not agreeing with me?

I thought I said exactly the same thing as Dave said more elegantly... the common Japanese vehicle is boring (Corolla, Camry, Accord, Altima, Imprezza, etc.), but they can make exciting vehicles when they decide to (WRX, S2000, Civic SI). While the common german (or even European to include Volvos) vehicle (entry-level BMWs, any VW, etc.) have a lot more character and are more fun to drive.

I would say that this "Japanese vehicles are boring to drive" opinion is mostly driven by Toyota's lack of excitement in any of their products... Honda, Nissan and Subaru are all a bit more exciting than Toyota vehicles, but still far away from the germans and europeans. Other than possibly the new IS (which is boggued down by electronic stuff to prevent you from doing anything fun, or so I read), is there a Lexus or Acura vehicle that you would say is exciting? You really think a TSX or TL is just as fun to drive as a 3-Series or 5-Series?

[Snowman]

This is what Shnak said:
“most Japanese are prone to be boring to drive.”
I do not agree with this, and your examples back this up. So Dave, what are you agreeing to?

How do my examples back you not agreeing with me?

I thought I said exactly the same thing as Dave said more elegantly... the common Japanese vehicle is boring (Corolla, Camry, Accord, Altima, Imprezza, etc.), but they can make exciting vehicles when they decide to (WRX, S2000, Civic SI). While the common german (or even European to include Volvos) vehicle (entry-level BMWs, any VW, etc.) have a lot more character and are more fun to drive.

I would say that this "Japanese vehicles are boring to drive" opinion is mostly driven by Toyota's lack of excitement in any of their products... Honda, Nissan and Subaru are all a bit more exciting than Toyota vehicles, but still far away from the germans and europeans. Other than possibly the new IS (which is boggued down by electronic stuff to prevent you from doing anything fun, or so I read), is there a Lexus or Acura vehicle that you would say is exciting? You really think a TSX or TL is just as fun to drive as a 3-Series or 5-Series?

I am not talking about Cars over $40k, I thought I made myself clear on that. There are far more exciting cars from Japan under $40k than from Germany. Please read my original post.

[Arthur Dent]

This is what Shnak said:
“most Japanese are prone to be boring to drive.”
I do not agree with this, and your examples back this up. So Dave, what are you agreeing to?

How do my examples back you not agreeing with me?

I thought I said exactly the same thing as Dave said more elegantly... the common Japanese vehicle is boring (Corolla, Camry, Accord, Altima, Imprezza, etc.), but they can make exciting vehicles when they decide to (WRX, S2000, Civic SI). While the common german (or even European to include Volvos) vehicle (entry-level BMWs, any VW, etc.) have a lot more character and are more fun to drive.

I would say that this "Japanese vehicles are boring to drive" opinion is mostly driven by Toyota's lack of excitement in any of their products... Honda, Nissan and Subaru are all a bit more exciting than Toyota vehicles, but still far away from the germans and europeans. Other than possibly the new IS (which is boggued down by electronic stuff to prevent you from doing anything fun, or so I read), is there a Lexus or Acura vehicle that you would say is exciting? You really think a TSX or TL is just as fun to drive as a 3-Series or 5-Series?

I am not talking about Cars over $40k, I thought I made myself clear on that. There are far more exciting cars from Japan under $40k than from Germany. Please read my original post.

I'd also like to point out that we don't really get a lot of the "average" European cars likes Fiats, Ford Festivas, or any of the ghastly French stuff. Where as we get the full range (mostly) of Japanese stuff. I will argee that the Japanese luxury cars are pretty dull - Lexus and Acura especially. The G35 from Infiniti looks pretty nice though.

[Shnak]

Well I was talking in general.

And I know that I would take a BMW 323i over anything from Japan under 40k. There's just no replacement for BMW when it comes to luxury sports sedan. They're not the most luxurious around, I think Mercedes, Audi and Lexus are more luxurious than BMW, but there's nobody even close to BMW in terms of how the car drives. They simply make the ultimate driver's car.

[Shnak]

I'd also like to point out that we don't really get a lot of the "average" European cars likes Fiats, Ford Festivas, or any of the ghastly French stuff. Where as we get the full range (mostly) of Japanese stuff. I will argee that the Japanese luxury cars are pretty dull - Lexus and Acura especially. The G35 from Infiniti looks pretty nice though.

That is true. I generalized to Europeans vehicles being more fun than Japanese vehicles considering what was available here... but really, I'm mostly talking about BMW and how they make far and away the best driver's vehicles.

And about the G35, they look nice until you sit in one and realize it looks and feels like a Sentra. 

[Snowman]

I have been in Audi A4’s, BMW 325’s, and MB 230’s They do not excite me when I drive them. When I drive a Sports Sedan I need to be excited. Japan’s major downfall is fwd, and when they change that it will be a different story. I would take a Subaru LGT any day. In Europe these entry level luxury cars are just mainstream and nothing special.

I t is when you go over the $40k mark that things get real interesting.

[davidm]

This is what Shnak said:
“most Japanese are prone to be boring to drive.”
I do not agree with this, and your examples back this up. So Dave, what are you agreeing to?

Well, I was being a good Canadian and kind of sliding down the middle.  Japanese sport sedans (to date) have been boring.  Their specific target market cars (WRX, Miata, etc.) are superb, but not for the mainstream.

Legacy GT Limited vs the equivalent priced NEW German car, the Legacy wins hands down on performance, but loses big time on amenities and looks (compares to a loaded A3 2.0T for instance).  Compared to a 2 year old e46 330i ZHP sedan - ooh, I'd probably end up in the Bimmer even though it would be a bit slower (heart says bimmer, head says scooby).

Again, it is model by model, not even brand by brand, let alone nationality of the parent.

So, I agree with nobody and anybody!    Should I run as a Liberal 

[Shnak]

Well we obviously have different tastes. I love feeling like I'm driving something built like a tank, that feels planted on the road, feels heavy and stable at any speed. You prefer something extremely light that you can toss in corners while accelerating to 3 times the speed limit... It's then not surprising that I hate pocket rockets like the WRX and love cars like my Jetta and BMWs while you most likely hate my Jetta because it doesn't have 400hp and you love your WRX... 

I drove a 2002 or 2003 BMW 323i (I think it was a 323i, with the ~185hp engine) a couple of times and I couldn't ask more from a car, other than maybe a little bit more back seat space. It just felt perfect, lots of torque in any speed at any time, engine sounded perfect at 110kph in 3rd. I just love BMWs.

[wing]

Wait Shnak, if you like heavy feeling cars, you DO NOT LIKE SPORTS SEDANS.  Those are conflicting.  You like luxury vehicles That is different.

A sports sedan MUST be light and nimble, as it is attempting to replicate the sports car feel with the practicality of a sedan.

[davidm]

I drove a 2002 or 2003 BMW 323i (I think it was a 323i, with the ~185hp engine) a couple of times and I couldn't ask more from a car, other than maybe a little bit more back seat space. It just felt perfect, lots of torque in any speed at any time, engine sounded perfect at 110kph in 3rd. I just love BMWs.

That was the e46 325i with 184 HP.

[Shnak]

Wait Shnak, if you like heavy feeling cars, you DO NOT LIKE SPORTS SEDANS.  Those are conflicting.  You like luxury vehicles That is different.

A sports sedan MUST be light and nimble, as it is attempting to replicate the sports car feel with the practicality of a sedan.

BMWs are heavy feeling.

[Snowman]

So, I agree with nobody and anybody!     Should I run as a Liberal    
We can count on your support on January 23’rd then