Author Topic: ABS: Good, bad, or just ugly?  (Read 14930 times)

ShadowDog

  • Guest
Re: ABS: Good, bad, or just ugly?
« Reply #40 on: December 18, 2005, 02:13:03 pm »
As mentioned, while ABS is beneficial to the grand majority of motorists, there is absolutely no substitute for good traction.  My wife's Optra5 (without ABS) now has winter tires since the tire shop finally got the right size in and installed them.  For the last three weeks, when the weather was terrible, driving on the three-season tires was managable, though terribly slippery.  I thought this to be a good test to see just how good a winter tire changeover on this car would be.  The advantage of the combination of deep dreads with adequate siping were immediately recognized.  No tire spin or lock-up have occurred in the same places of ice and compact snow I go through almost every day where the three-season tires had noticable trouble.

Disregarding winter, on typical tires, ABS does have a place for the average driver.  There is no way to gauge how well a driver will perform with or without ABS unless it's on some sort of track setting.  Nobody is going to say to a person just avoiding an accident, "Okay, now let's pull the ABS fuse and see if you can do that again."

I feel as though people tend to drive differently when ABS is equipped.  I'm not saying they would tend to be more aggressive; however, knowing that a car has ABS perhaps leads to a higher confidence level that deters some drivers from defensive and careful driving.  I am curious if the butt-horn tailgating me in his pickup truck on icy roads would have more common sense if he left more room between himself and my rear bumper if he didn't have ABS to assist him to swerve around me only because he was too close to begin with.  Having ABS, he went around me (literally a 180) and stopped just to my left.  If there were no ABS, he either would have been skilled enough to manage threshold braking and get around me, or he would have locked up and slid right into my bumper.  There's no way to know but to say that ABS helped avoid a worse accident...even if he did tag me with his rear bumper in my quarter-panel.

A whole lot of variables in this debate.  My only question would be for the only ABS hater I've read, safristi, what makes ABS past it's due date?  Have driving habits somehow changed for the better since the onset of its standard availability in virtually all vehicles?  If anything, I'd say it's now worse.  Is there another point you meant to indicate by this?

Offline safristi

  • Car Crazy
  • *****
  • Posts: 46229
  • Carma: +471/-416
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Cars: since the beginning of Saf timeLOTUS ELAN,STANDARD... 10, MG midget, MGB (2),Mazda Millennia,Hyundai Veloster and 1997 Ford Ranger 2014 Subaru Forester XT
Re: ABS: Good, bad, or just ugly?
« Reply #41 on: December 18, 2005, 05:33:38 pm »
Read the stats dog there is NO HARD !! EVIDENCE that they make a blinkin' difference ....and u LOT have a VOTE!!!!! :'(...dig deep and see.....it's HAS been surpassed by TSC's DSC's and various useful toys  YA'W'll will like...BRING 'EM ON...shoot ...DUMB & DUMBER 8)
Time is to stop everything happening at once

Offline johngenx

  • Car Crazy
  • *****
  • Posts: 33325
  • Carma: +758/-938
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Cars: 2009 Toyota Corolla, 2004 Toyota Highlander V-6 4WD, 2001 Subaru Forester, 1994 Mazda Miata
Re: ABS: Good, bad, or just ugly?
« Reply #42 on: December 18, 2005, 05:36:43 pm »
Have driving habits somehow changed for the better since the onset of its standard availability in virtually all vehicles?  If anything, I'd say it's now worse.

I don't think people are better drivers.  Probably not worse, either.  The lack of skills has been highlighted by congestion, poor road design and the larger number of distractions (cell phones, DVD players and so on).

It's difficult to take out the one variable of ABS and see if it reduces collisions.  Here in Alberta, I think ABS is useless for 99% of drivers because they follow at 110km/h at about 1/2 a car length and most of our collisions are rear-end chain-reaction smash-ups.

davidm

  • Guest
Re: ABS: Good, bad, or just ugly?
« Reply #43 on: December 19, 2005, 06:24:56 pm »
Read the stats dog there is NO HARD !! EVIDENCE that they make a blinkin' difference ....and u LOT have a VOTE!!!!! :'(...dig deep and see.....it's HAS been surpassed by TSC's DSC's and various useful toys  YA'W'll will like...BRING 'EM ON...shoot ...DUMB & DUMBER 8)

Saf, my understanding is that the TSC/DSC/ASC+T/etc. are all based off the sensors used by the ABS system and that those systems (once they make a decision in the chip) use the brakes and the ABS system to effect change.  For sure, those systems do far more for vehicle stability than just ABS on their own.  That said, like cheap ABS, a bad traction/stability control system can be really aggressive and annoying (and sometimes produce dangerous surprises).

sterling

  • Guest
Re: ABS: Good, bad, or just ugly?
« Reply #44 on: December 19, 2005, 11:43:38 pm »
I don't care how many acronyms a car has. If you are travelling in a straight line and hammer the brakes, ABS is all that is working.

Offline tpl

  • Car Crazy
  • *****
  • Posts: 23909
  • Carma: +298/-675
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Cars: 2022 Taos
Re: ABS: Good, bad, or just ugly?
« Reply #45 on: December 20, 2005, 07:00:45 am »
I agree. If you are in a straight line its just the ABS.

But if you are turning then all the other stuff starts working and that relies on being able to use the ABS system on an individual wheel basis to brake or release the brakes.  At the BMW school you are not really going fast enough to get everything going at once...either you are ABS'ing in the accident avoidance or you are provoking and attempting to recover from over and understeer which when the stability stuff is turned on just has  a single wheel being braked for an instant
The most radical revolutionary will become a conservative the day after the revolution.

Panzer

  • Guest
Re: ABS: Good, bad, or just ugly?
« Reply #46 on: December 20, 2005, 08:35:24 am »
My new car ('05 Impreza) is the first one I've ever owned with ABS.  I did fine without it before and found it annoying at first but now I've gotten used to it.  Maybe it's just me but it seemed like I had better braking power without ABS than with ABS.  I'm not disputing all the tech sheets that says ABS is supposed to do just the opposite but it's just what it feels like to me.  Given the option, I would not have taken ABS at all but it comes standard on Subies so I'm stuck with it now.

Offline safristi

  • Car Crazy
  • *****
  • Posts: 46229
  • Carma: +471/-416
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Cars: since the beginning of Saf timeLOTUS ELAN,STANDARD... 10, MG midget, MGB (2),Mazda Millennia,Hyundai Veloster and 1997 Ford Ranger 2014 Subaru Forester XT
Re: ABS: Good, bad, or just ugly?
« Reply #47 on: December 20, 2005, 01:38:00 pm »
Yeah Panzer...and Millions of other Pansies sold a bill of goods!!!? too..... >:(...CUT TO THE CHASE..if the best system is a FULL BORE YAW,Tadda Dadda system..OFFER IT NOT a PALE immitation and pretend yer doing the buyer a FAVOUR....same fer AIR bags ALL OR NONE...dont TELL ME they are $1,000 a POP B/S...
  sounds like the disc brake/seatbelt slash whateverr else arguement that came before..... :'(
 

wrekk

  • Guest
Re: ABS: Good, bad, or just ugly?
« Reply #48 on: December 20, 2005, 01:56:54 pm »
I think ABS is beneficial, but in straight line braking, who cares about ABS, is not the primary reason for ABS is that is allows for steering control?  I thought you actually stopped quicker without ABS?  The problem is most people mash the brake and basically freeze, waiting for the impending crash, rather than trying to maneouver the vehicle out of the way, which ABS allows you to do to some degree.  I almost never have ABS come on, unless I'm sliding up to a red light in Winterpeg.

nefcanuck

  • Guest
Re: ABS: Good, bad, or just ugly?
« Reply #49 on: December 20, 2005, 01:59:15 pm »
I'll chime in with support for ABS here.  I'm a firm believer that my accident in '99 would have been much worse without ABS as I was able to steer around the ladder that fell off the truck in front of me and scrub off speed.  

Without ABS, the wheels would have locked and I would have either run over partially or completely the ladder that was obstructing my lane and no one can tell me that hitting a ladder at 100km/h would be a good thing versus what actually happened...

NefCanuck

Offline quadzilla

  • Car Crazy
  • *****
  • Posts: 23688
  • Carma: +392/-634
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Cars: 2022 Rock'n Rolla Nightstalker
Re: ABS: Good, bad, or just ugly?
« Reply #50 on: December 20, 2005, 02:16:32 pm »
My new car ('05 Impreza) is the first one I've ever owned with ABS. I did fine without it before and found it annoying at first but now I've gotten used to it. Maybe it's just me but it seemed like I had better braking power without ABS than with ABS. I'm not disputing all the tech sheets that says ABS is supposed to do just the opposite but it's just what it feels like to me. Given the option, I would not have taken ABS at all but it comes standard on Subies so I'm stuck with it now.

If they still put the RE92's on the Impreza that might be the problem.  My personal take on those is I didn't like them and they are terrible in the cold/rain/snow.  Had them on one car long before I knew how good snow tires could be, the ABS was working overtime everytime I drove that car.

Offline initial_D

  • Car Crazy
  • *****
  • Posts: 13022
  • Carma: +30/-50
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: ABS: Good, bad, or just ugly?
« Reply #51 on: December 20, 2005, 02:36:43 pm »
All the electronic Aids are wonderful when they work, if they need to be replaced out of warranty ... that would suck a big one! :-[

I have 100% confidence on my BMW's ABS system, and I don't think I can ever out-brake it. Further more, I noticed that the ABS systems works differently when the temperature is below freezing, it reacts differently than in hot dry conditions. It detects more than just tire slipperage.

smainville

  • Guest
Re: ABS: Good, bad, or just ugly?
« Reply #52 on: December 21, 2005, 07:42:02 pm »
Well I'm definitely pro-abs and when combine with awd and good snow tires it's even better.  20 minutes ago I avoided a situation that without both technologies my X-Trail would probably be mush and the other guy a casualty.  I drove my son to his friend, on my way back I was driving 60-70kp/h and an oncoming car lost it, it did a 360 then slid sideways towards me.  It was a red Hyundai Accent coupe, should I have not been able to quickly slow down and change lane I would have broadsided it.  I felt the ABS kick in, I swerved and avoided a collision.  I don't want to imagine the same scenario with my Focus.  The X-Trail is equiped with 4 channels and 5 sensors.

davidm

  • Guest
Re: ABS: Good, bad, or just ugly?
« Reply #53 on: December 22, 2005, 12:10:20 pm »
Well I'm definitely pro-abs and when combine with awd and good snow tires it's even better.  20 minutes ago I avoided a situation that without both technologies my X-Trail would probably be mush and the other guy a casualty.  I drove my son to his friend, on my way back I was driving 60-70kp/h and an oncoming car lost it, it did a 360 then slid sideways towards me.  It was a red Hyundai Accent coupe, should I have not been able to quickly slow down and change lane I would have broadsided it.  I felt the ABS kick in, I swerved and avoided a collision.  I don't want to imagine the same scenario with my Focus.  The X-Trail is equiped with 4 channels and 5 sensors.

5 sensors?  Where would the 5th sensor be placed?  Oh, and it sounds like a good piece of driving.

sterling

  • Guest
Re: ABS: Good, bad, or just ugly?
« Reply #54 on: December 22, 2005, 12:57:52 pm »
Quote
Where would the 5th sensor be placed?

On the spare, of course. :)

davidm

  • Guest
Re: ABS: Good, bad, or just ugly?
« Reply #55 on: December 22, 2005, 01:06:03 pm »
Quote
Where would the 5th sensor be placed?

On the spare, of course. :)

I don't want to see the situation you're in when you get wheels spin on the spare ...  :o

Offline Drivesideways

  • Drunk on Fuel
  • *****
  • Posts: 2389
  • Carma: +0/-12
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: ABS: Good, bad, or just ugly?
« Reply #56 on: December 22, 2005, 03:51:10 pm »
A system that gives drivers of less than exceptional talents the ability to steer and brake at the same time in a panic situation is a good thing (I liked your example, davidm).  Whether those drivers have the presence of mind to turn and brake at the same time, is something else entirely.  And to Saff's point, simply keeping the wheels turning may not be enough.  Turning the wheel sharply under braking can do some pretty strange things to a car's attitude.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2005, 11:09:21 pm by Drivesideways »
"PC Load Letter...what the f_ck does that mean?"

Offline dr_spock

  • Spock
  • *****
  • Posts: 12879
  • Carma: +46/-56
    • View Profile
Re: ABS: Good, bad, or just ugly?
« Reply #57 on: December 22, 2005, 10:05:11 pm »
For my skill level, ABS is good. 

barrie1

  • Guest
Re: ABS: Good, bad, or just ugly?
« Reply #58 on: December 23, 2005, 12:22:48 am »
ABS is a lifesaver if folks know how to use it. I personally don't think enough people understand the principle behind it to use it to their best advantage. A Real Driver Car person does know but the other 90% don't and thats where the bad things happen from inexperience of this system sometimes.  :)

smainville

  • Guest
Re: ABS: Good, bad, or just ugly?
« Reply #59 on: December 23, 2005, 05:30:34 am »
I agree, in my case I practice with it.  Often I will jam the brakes when I come to turn in my driveway, I'm always amazed that I can make it without ending up on the lawn.  Also down the road a bit there is an intersection where I do it as well, CTC parking lot at 6:00am is where I try various things too.  I can do all this because I live in the boonies, but it has allowed me to know my X-Trail's capabilities better.