Topic: Skid Control School

[Craig]

As the weather gets colder, the winter tire threads have been popping up more frequently.  I'm a huge believer in winter tires, but I understand they aren't a cure-all.  I know, because my wife slid off the road two years ago during a snowfall, even with Nokians on the Matrix.  She misjudged the conditions, was travelling too fast, and overcorrected when the car began to drift.

She has since attended the weekend Skid School in Oakville, and drives the X-Trail to work with snow tires (Gislaved NordFrost 3).  That setup is the best we can think of - Skid School/Winter Tires/AWD.  A second at-fault on her record would raise our insurance premiums more than the cost of the tires and classes.

She came back from the classes last year with more confidence, backed by improved overall driving skills that I could see.  Where she used to be timid, she is now perhaps cautious, but more confident in her decisions.

I suppose my point is, before you throw snow tires on your car and declare yourself prepard for winter, consider enrolling yourself or a loved one in a qualified skid control school.  My wife went to a school in Oakville, but I understand there are others.

Before anyone asks, no, I did not take the class.  Perhaps I will at some time, but I do have a lot of winter driving under my belt, and have successfully corrected a number of skid situations (controlled, in a snowy parking lot) and a few rather uncontrolled situations.  Of course, don't the vast majority of people believe they are above-average drivers?

[avtoller]

"Of course, don't the vast majority of people believe they are above-average drivers?"

Well of course I am!!!

You make some excellent points. Thank you.

As I've said, I do not use snows here on the Island, and didn't in Vancouver, but there have been some winters were I almost regreted my choice. I grew up in a snow-belt area and was taught by an expert snow-driver before I even got my licence. Each time I buy a new car I seek out controlled opportunituies to test it's snow driving capabilities and learn it's quirks. Unsually I would drive up to Mt. Seymour and play in the parking lot when the first snow hit up there.

I also took a refresher course each year as tires wear during the rest of the year and reflexes/reactions slow or get rusty. Experience, confidence, and caution are all critical factors in good snow driving. Anything other than defensive driving is foolish at best. When in doubt, slow down. When in SERIOUS doubt, park it!

[Snowman]

Common sense and logic are difficult to teach along with depth perception and coordination. I believe theses types of training courses are good and should teach a driver to error on the side of caution when confronted with adverse driving conditions. Most people think that the type of vehicle they buy will compensate for their poor abilities, usually a deadly mistake.

[quadzilla]

This is a good idea and I think it should be mandatory for all drivers.  It's funny as I just asked my g/f if she would be interested in taking "advanced" drivers training at the BMW school and I would even cover the costs.  I figured by using terms like "advanced" and "BMW" she would a) be interested b) not insulted.  I think it may work.

Has anybody else had any experience with any advanced driving schools? 

Signed, Nervous in the passenger seat. 

[wing]

The MCO puts on a winter school and it is great to learn handling on snow and ice.  And it's cheap too $120.

[davidm]

Did Advanced II BMW school a couple of months ago.  Went on a Tuesday with a friend and there were 4 drivers, plus some marketing guy from BMW taking the course.  We got in lots of extra seat time which was great.  Absolutely amazing course and I learned a tonne (in particular, how amazing the DSC/ASC/Traction control and ABS really are).  Also learned how much I suck compared to the instructors.  Definitely learned some stuff that impacts every day driving.  One word of caution, these courses are outsourced to different groups in different parts of the country.  I was with the Drivers Unlimited group from Vancouver (they do western Canada), but I can't speak for folks in the east.  Well worth the $500.

Also, Drivers Unlimited does courses through the local BMW club that are open to any driver of any car.  Cost is about half as you are driving your own vehicle.  Obvious pros and cons to being in your own car.

Overall, had a great time!

[morty]

Great thread cp...These are the fundamental things we always overlook. I have been hammering the idea of snow tires, but even more powerful is snow tires combined with proper driving skills. The problem is always the upfront cost. However, it is more like planning ahead. People forget how much an accident will cost them in insurance premiums and deductibles. Nevermind the risk of seriuos injury. Invariably, accidents in snowy weather will be blamed on both parties and everyone pays. Preparing and learning how to avoid the accident really ends up costing less.

I am going to investigate this skid school a little more and find out where it is offered across the country. If anyone out there knows of a good school, please forward details to <A Href="mailto:mkoch@tiretrends.com">mkoch@tiretrends.com</a>

[robarakira]

Even though I've taken numerous driving courses, I'd still like to invest in a winter driving school.  Too bad we only have a few days of winter.





Note:  I think we all can learn a lot on our own by taking our cars out to an empty icy/snowy parking lot to test our vehicle's limits.   Now if only those pesky police/security guards wouldn't care.

[Craig]

I think a couple of you touched on a point I omitted.  That is, your insurance premium and driving record are minor concerns in the event of a collision.  I was only pointing out that the economics of the decision made sense as well.


I don't often test the limits of my car (I never intend to reach them), but I do test the limits of the current conditions, as often as surrounding traffic allows.  Mostly, I test the limits of threshold braking well short of stop signs when no vehicles are behind me.  You can determine how much grip you have at 20km/h just as well as you can at 80km/h.

[davidm]

For us west coasters, a good school will get you out on the skid pad that does an excellent job of simulating rain/ice/snow (any low friction environment).  Most of the BMW course had us on the skid pad at 20-30 kph and being able to 360 the cars without much difficulty.  The "high speed" manouvers usually involved entering the skid pad at 60-80 kph and then making evasive manouvers and bringing the car to a stop without hitting cones or spinning out (which is what usually happened the first times).  The skid pad dry vs wet is an amazing demonstration of how much driving changes when you go to a low friction surface and how hard to control the car really can be.  Its also an excellent add for traction/stability control and ABS when you drive the car fully deactivated (special switch, not the standard dash switch) vs all on.  The manouvers on the skid pad were almost boring with the nannies on as it took real effort to get the car bent out of shape.

Mort, for BC the BWM car club events are excellent, and the folks from Driving Unlimited to great events (others host, they run the event)
www.bmwccbc.org and www.drivingunlimited.com

[blackdiamond]

Hi,

does anybody know about a driving school here in Calgary that would offer that kind of courses apart from AMA?

Thanks a lot in advance.

[mark]

I took the BMW Level 1 Advanced Driving course a few years back in Toronto, at Downsview.  I thought it was excellent, although it was on the expensive side.  If you can comfortably afford it, I highly recommend it.   I felt like Schumi driving home that day in the '85 Jetta (17 yrs old at the time) on winter tires (it was spring). 

I'd love to take the Level 2 course someday.  I think they also offer a fancy pants winter course with accommodations at Chateau Montebello in Quebec.  Go tearing down the icy, snowy logging roads trying to stay out of the snowbanks.

[RayT]

Thumbs up for the MCO Winter Skid School (Ottawa area)

http://www.mco.org/cms/index.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=11

Lots of fun and lots of seat time.

[bassix]

Back in the 90s when I bought an AWD Eagle Talon I wanted to be able to extract the most from the car I just invested in. So I enrolled in what was then the Nissan Performance Driving school at Shannonville. $1700 for 3 days (although I saved about $300 on income tax, as it was an official "school"). It was WELL worth it. Learned basics such as panic braking (with and without ABS), avoidance and also high speed driving, heel and toeing, threshold braking, etc.

I would and do recommend courses of this nature to anyone that gets behind the wheel of any vehicle. You will not regret it.

Only thing that pisses me off is that insurance companies do not even acknowledge this and do not reduce premiums based on attending and passing schools such as this. But even that can be overlooked if it saves your life or someone elses. And makes driving more enjoyable to boot!

[morty]

We have been invited to a few of the BCBMWCC events, but as of yet have not been able to attend. Thanks for the tip and perhaps we will find out when the club is holding an event.

Interesting to hear peoples experience with driving schools. I think it is one of those investments that has a high up front cost, but pays dividends for years. For some, they can see the long term; others just see the short term expense.

[tpl]

I went to the BMW Adv II this summer at  Downsview.     Good if expensive, I have a BMW with all the driver aids goodies and now having taken that course in a similar car ( 2wd 330 not awd) I will never willingly buy a car without abs, stability and all the rest.

HOWEVER.  I dont think that the polished wet concrete is a particularly good replacement for snow over ice on asphalt and the course takes place at low speeds. 

The more advanced course right up to the Winter course at Mt Tremblant are serioulsy expensive.... they said that the rental of the circuit at trembalnt is $10,000US per day not including liability in surance  and those course only have 12 people at a time.

[bassix]

I will never willingly buy a car without abs, stability and all the rest.

For SAFETY I agree.
For FUN I disagree.

[davidm]

Tpl, the with vs without the "driver aids" is amazing isn't it.  I was shocked at how big a difference it made.

[guillermo]

I took the Car Control School near Toronto several years ago.
I was so impressed that I learned and improved so much in that one day course that I bought gift certificates to make sure my parents, my brother and my sister also took the course.
I enjoyed it so much I took the rest of the courses they offered one by one:
Winter Car Control School (Minden, Ontario)
Advanced Autoslalom School (near Toronto)
Track School (Mosport DDT track, east of Toronto)

I starting racing my car in autoslalom(solo2) events, going to lapping days at race tracks and competing in Solosprints/solo1 at race tracks. I also competed  in several ice races in Minden. This spring I took a 2 day TRAC Racing Depot racing school in St. Eustache Quebec.
Because of my training and racing experience I have became one of the in-car instructors for all of the car control school courses.
The students that had previously taken the BMW skid school all say our Car Control School is better because you practice with your own vehicle, get more seat time, and we don't try to convice you BMWs are the best....

Most students are there because of word of mouth from their friends or family members that have taken the course.
Even if you have 30 years experience driving in icy mountain ranges, unless you have taken several courses like this AND you race on a regular basis, you are just a grasshopper!!

The next course is tomorrow and a few more in the coming months.
http://www.carcontrolschool.com/

[wing]

That's similar to what they do here in Ottawa www.mco.org if anyone is interested in learning how not to ditch their car come winter.