Topic: Almost bought a car today! But...

[Straysheepie]

For those who have been following the straysheepie saga, believe it or not, I almost bought a car today!!  Unfortunately, in the end all I got was hard lesson learned

After everyone's advice against the Accent with > $2k damage, I looked in the Buy and Sell again for a listing.  One caught my attention - another 2003 Accent GSi for around $9900 at Brian Jessel BMW.  So I called yesterday and spoke to a very nice rep who impressed me by pulling up the ICBC record for the Accent even before I asked for it, and told me there was only a $500 claim on the windshield.  I was pleasantly surprised, and told him I would visit tomorrow morning.

So this morning I dragged my Mom and Uncle there and test drove the Hyundai.  It was decent, although the engine huffed and puffed uphill which left me worried about whether it can manage to go up to SFU (my university on top of a mountain, for people not in Vancouver).  After we got out of the car, my uncle noticed a Civic sitting nearby.  He asked about it, and it was a 1997 with very low mileage (~50k kms) and in good shape.  I thought, what the heck, might as well test drive it since I'm here and it's in the same price range.

It blew the Hyundai away.  It was 6 years older, but it handled very well going up the hill and down, and everyone (including the salesman) was telling me to go with the Civic because it is a lot better built and had a higher resell value.  It only had a $600 claim on it so it seemed like a decent deal.  So on the way back to the dealer we were finalizing the price and what things would be touched up/included etc, and I was happy that it looked like I would FINALLY have a car!

When we got back to the lot and stepped out, another BMW sales gestured to the one with us and whispered something to him.  After their conversation, our salesman turned back to us and told us the car was sold!!!  Then I remembered that before we left the lot, the other sales and another man were standing very close to our car, and the sales rep with us waved to his colleague to indicate the other buyer could take it for a spin after we finished.

Well, it turns out the other sales sold it (since the buyer didn't want a test drive) and did the paperwork while we were out on the test drive without consulting the sales rep that was with us!  He could easily have called and said his client wanted to put in an offer for sale, and worked something out with the 'our' rep to ascertain priority.

I feel cheated and disgusted by what happened.  The salesman helping us was extremely courteous and polite even though he knew right off the bat that we weren't buying a brand spankin' new BMW, and I was ready to give him my money.  I'm not as concerned for myself since there are a billion Civics out there for sale, but I felt awful for the salesman since he spent an hour with us and he had the sale snatched away from him.

I know I'm ranting here, but I'm also curious - does this happen often?  It seems horribly unethical given that the other rep could have called us at least to say there was an offer on the car while we were gone.  And now I'm paranoid since I'm thinking that, what, we now have to put a deposit on a car to "claim" it before test driving it?!

That's my lesson for today, I guess... get rid of any other potential buyers nearby before I go for a test drive

[Saint11]

yeah the accent will not make it up sfu very well.  

at least u know what you want. a low km civic. you could always tell that salesman to keep a lookout for you for a possible civic.

[Sterling]

Supply and demand, my friend. The supply was 1 and the demand was 2. Something has to give. I've seen the same thing happen a few times but no, it doesn't happen often. Bad luck.

Put yourself in the other customer's position. You're standing there with your cheque in your hand and your salesman is refusing to take it because someone else has shown up and has to take the car for a drive! Imagine how frustrating that would be. Although you might, I don't think many people would easily accept that they can't buy a car they want just because they don't need to drive it first and someone else does.

Like you said, there's a billion Civics out there. It says a lot about your character that you felt bad for your sales rep but it sounds like he's a pro, he'll get over it.

[ArticSteve]

Are there no cars in BC that are sold outside of car dealers?  Why buy a generic used car from a used car dealer.

If you buy private in BC do you still pay GST?  I would not think so.  So why does it seem that everyone posting from the GVA only looks at used cars at dealerships?

Fill me in.

[robsaw]

Because buying used cars from NEW CAR dealers typically gives a better vehicle with  some minimal fitness for use assurance.  And, trade-ins are often just the easy thing to do.

(avoid the ratty looking used car only dealerships in Greater Vancouver as almost anywhere else)

[Bullet Blue]

That's quite the story. I have never had that happen to me. The closest thing that has happened was me showing up for a test drive and the sales rep saying that he had just sold it 20 minutes ago. Just bad luck. At least you got to get a test drive out of it to know how the civic drives. You'll be able to find a comparable civic in no time.

[ArticSteve]

Rob:  Buying a used Hyundai from any new car dealerships has nothing to with getting a good car.  Folks buy medium priced and econo priced used cars from "car dealers" , whether they be used or new car dealers, because they offer a false sense of security.  Folks need somebody to tell them that they are doing the right thing regardless if it is true.

The best cars are from the private sellers. The exception to this rule is with the high end units because those previous owners usually trade in for sales tax credits and there is just a plain lack of product in the private market.

Fortunately most people are pretty stunned at buying a used car and go to dealers, which results in an automatic PST surcharge, but results in less competition for the savvy private buyer.

[Straysheepie]

Yes, I understand what people are saying about supply and demand which is why I'm not too concerned for myself as a buyer - it's just frustrating the other sales rep didn't even bother calling to say the car was sold which wasted my time.

As for Civics handling the same, that same afternoon I test drove a higher trim Civic (same year, this one is EXG with power everything) from a private seller and I was surprised to find it didn't drive nearly as well.  Acceleration wasn't smooth and I had to stomp harder on the gas to get it going after a red light - I drove the same route as the other car so I know it's not the road.  Still, I was tempted to buy it after since it was *there* but decided to go with my gut feeling and not buy it, especially when the seller started hassling me to hurry up and get it inspected by the next day etc.

Articsteve, I can see you're obviously biased towards private sales, I was too until I actually started calling around and meeting up with private sellers.  After a month or so, I found:

1. Most people are reluctant to answer honestly about accidents/thefts, in one case I asked how much the damage was in a collision and the guy said he didn't remember, it was minor - then when I ran the carfax I discovered it was a rebuilt so he KNEW it was a substantial amount.

2. Yes, BC buyers save PST (7%) when buying privately but it is offset by the extra hassle if something goes wrong and you have to take an individual (vs a company with a reputation to tarnish) to court.

3. Cars from private sellers do NOT necessarily mean they are in the best shape.  Most of the ones I've seen are on par with what I see at used car dealerships.

I'm not trying to convert you, just justifying why after a month of looking at private sales I am turning to look at trade-ins at new car dealers.  The dealers keep the good cars to sell and the rest go to used car dealers, and it definitely shows in the cosmetic condition and the accident/theft claims involved.

[ovr50]

Stray - your point #2 above is incorrect. BC buyers do NOT save the PST in private sales, they do save the GST however and maybe that's what you meant. Any buyer will have to pay the BC PST on registration of the car w ICBC for plates/ins.

[davidy]

Regardless of how you buy a vehicle, you need to have a thorough inspection by a trusted mechanic.  

My long story....

I bought my truck used from a small town new car dealer (no choice since I was living up in northern BC)....truck just came off the three year warranty. I had it inspected by a local mechanic...didn't mean much in a small town where everyone knows everyone. I could tell the inspection was not very thorough by the body language signs between the dealer and the mechanic. Anyways, bought the truck (mileage was just over 60k). Drive fine, but later on, I noticed that it had very poor gas economy.....like 12 mpg or so in the city...not much better for the highway. For the following year or so, I had several different mechanics check over everything....biggest change was replacing a couple of 02 sensors....significantly improved the highway gas economy. Finally, got the city gas economy within the published range....18 mpg city, 28 mpg highway.

[Straysheepie]

Thanks Ovr50, I did state the wrong tax.  That reminds me, I need to go and see how much registration costs as well...

I will definitely have the car inspected by a mechanic since I don't know anything about how a car runs or its components.  The "trusted" mechanic part is the hard one... finding somebody who will actually do a thorough check like Davidy said.

[Bullet Blue]

Well at least it sounds like you are being smart by checking out the vehicles history before you make any decisions. I'm sure a lot of people don't and they get stuck with someone else's problem.

[Davidm]

Registration is minimal in BC ($65 sits in my mind, that might include plates).  One concern with a civic for you is the insurance will be substantially higher than many other vehicles in this range.  Get some rough insurance quotes first to make sure this isn't a lot more expensive than other vehicles.

[ArticSteve]

Well no mechanic is going to pick up on the fact that a car has bad O2 sensors if the check engine light is not on during an overall inspection.  That is just part and parcel with buying a used car.  I alott a $1000 on parts alone (first year) on any of my used purchases.

Vancouver can't be that bad regarding private sales.  In the Toronto area for example it is a buyer's paradise.  You gotta be prepared to put some effort in it, but you get to interview owners personally, find out if the seller has teenage sons (who typically destroy cars), and view records.

My son started out as a detailer at what I will only describe as the leading foreign car retailer. If you folks only could see what they can do to trade-ins.  Cars that are traded in to a new car dealer are retained on the basis if there is room on the lot and money can be made on that unit.  They usually come in with dents, scratches and generally in average condition at best.  That is why they are traded in.

What people don"t know is the dent repair dudes come weekly to pull minor dents as well as the air brush paint guy.  The detailers buff the scratches out, remove the stains in the interior all for a few hundred bucks.  The cars look like the the day they came out of the showroom.  People are always taken in by this cosmetic alteration.  It's understandable, but it doesn't change the fact that the car in question probably suffered lack of oil and other vital fluid changes, etc.

Try and look past the brilliant shine.  Are there invoices for oil changes with mileage shown, other fluid changes, repair invoices?  Usually not.  Just a salesman telling you what great condition the car is in when in fact he has actually no idea and could care less.  He sole purpose is to move that car off the lot.  His living depends on it.  They will tell you anything and make you feel good about yourself, but it has little to to with the car itself.  All this costs another 7% in GST. for someone to hold your hand.

[Saint11]

moral of the story is don't judge a book by where its being sold at.

[Brig]

The pedant in me is struggling mightily.

[davidy]

Articsteve,

The main problem with that dealer is that there was very poor gas economy at the time of the purchase....it was sucking gas big time. The truck in question was being "serviced" (lack thereof IMO) by them.....a lack of service records due to a computer glitch was one reason the dealer had given me, a first time car buyer. The dealer was the local Mazda dealer. The nearest other Mazda dealer is like 600 miles away.

Dave

[ArticSteve]

Davidy,  Not being crictical of your purchase, but the only person that probably knew that the truck had bad gas mileage was the dude that traded it in.  The Mazda dealer wouldn't have picked it up because they don't drive them and even a very detailed inspection by the best of mechanics wouldn't provide any reason to check them.

Your vehicle is OBD2 is it not so it is only reasonable to rely on the check engine light for that kind of thing.

Poor performing O2 sensors that are not detected by the emmissions check engine light are going to slip thru any inspection.  The subsequent replacement of those would be a matter of any agreed to warranty between the dealer and the new buyer and that would still be tuff.

One thing a Dealer is great for is trading in problem vehicles.  Lay the unit on a dealer and your moral obligations are over IMO.  I wouldn't sell a problem vehicle to a private party without telling them first about the problem.  Answer; lay it on the dealer! This is the course of action that many people take.  I do not think many folks trade in a vehicle and submit a long list of problems that they are having with the vehicle.  In many cases, they are there just to get rid of it.  But on the flip side, the Dealer is going to have the car detailed, certified (which doesn't address most problems), and then sell it and hope that those problems stay hidden for 90 days.  The real difficult, hidden, nagging problems just get passed along and used cars from new car dealerships or used car dealers make for classic breeding grounds.

[dash]

Artic, great advice and points, the off loading troublesome cars on dealers-is one I have not really thought of, but my impression is that manufacturer dealers (Honda, GM, etc) in general off load trade ins and lease returns to wholesalers when they believe that the auto in question is in poor shape. I believe they try to keep the newer and nicer ones on thier lots to avoid bad PR and costs. This is reflected in the different pricing structures I have observed, that is, given the same car (cetur parabus-all things being equal), a manufacturer dealer charges a premium price compared to wholesalers and wholesalers charge a premium over private-the premium is part risk part profit.

[davidy]

Articsteve,

When the original owner had it traded, the vehicle was still under warranty (or just expired soon after)...around three years and 60K. If there were any significant problems, one would think to bring it in for servicing while under warranty. Bumper to bumper warranty is standard for the first three years and 60,000 km.

Lack of service records due to a computer glitch sounds convenient. The inspection was a waste of my time and money....too bad that another mechanic I was considering originally was too busy. It was also an out of town purchase in winter....and my other vehicle was hurting big time. Live and learn I guess.

Dave