Topic: Buying car in Ont and bringing to Alberta - PST?

[Nonzerosum]

I am looking at buying a used Porsche in Ontario but I live in Alberta.  Anyone know if I can get a PST refund?

thanks!

[ArticSteve]

I don't think so. Ontario government very tight fisted..  I know tourists from other countries can claim the GST back but not the PST.

What are the details on the Porsche?  Are you buying from a dealer?

(Message edited by articsteve on January 15, 2005)

[ovr50]

I thought you would be exempt from ON PST with a proper AB address but I'm not expert here. EAX or Sterling or Neil might know.

[Sterling]

I'm not sure but I wouldn't think that PST would be chargeable either. I know some provinces charge PST at the time of registration rather than the time of sale. I don't know if Ontario works like that or not. I would think that if you have your insurance in place and get the car registered in Alberta, that you wouldn't be paying any PST.

[inco]

If the car is not registered to an Ontario address there is no PST. You will simply arrange to have in transit licence for the car to move it from here (Ont) to there.

[ArticSteve]

If you buy from a private seller you might be able to go to another province and transfer the ownership there.  Providing that the owner is cool with that.  But I doubt it.  It will probably need to be transfered first to be accepted as legitimate by the Alberta gov.

As for the 10 day "trip permit"; the Ministry office folks wouldn't issue you a trip permit until the PST is paid in Ontario at least.  I've been thru that plenty of times.

That is why I asked about a dealer sale.  The dealer has it in their name and they must transfer it into the owner's name before they let it go, certified or uncertified.  When they transfer it PST must be paid by somebody.  The Ontario government has no exception for out of province people.  You buy a couch in Ontario and go in and say that you aren't paying tax because you have a document that says you live in a non PST province?

What would stop people who have recently moved from Alberta, but buy a car in Ontario and claim the exemption, then turn around and mail the ownership back to Alberta, get it transfered and then a few months later wander into a Ontario Ministry office and say they need a set of Ontario plates.

The dude needs to call his local licensing office in Alberta.  This is probably not an uncommon question.

[ovr50]

Well, I do know this - I bought a car in AB and paid no PST (of course) and registered it in BC where I had to pay the PST to BC. That's normal. If the reverse happened - if you buy the car in BC and you provide proof of permenant AB residency and get a travel permit allowing you 1 or 2 days to get it to AB, you do not pay BC PST. Naturally, you pay GST in both cases (but only once, in the province of buying).

[Railton]

The chap from New Brunswick that purchased my AWD Talon this past Spring didn't pay any Tax in this Province.
He arranged with his insurance company prior to purchasing that he was buying a car in Ontario with a certain serial number, flew in from NB with certified cheque in hand and his plates off his old car, I signed the ownership over and mounted his plates to my old car and off he went. Haven't heard from him since.
Railton

[Roadrunner]

He must be a happy camper then, Railton.

[Ucda]

Hi Nonzerosum:

See http://www.trd.fin.gov.on.ca/userfiles/page_attachments/Rsie_f0298.pdf?N_ID=3

Information Regarding Refunds on Goods Removed From Ontario  

"The attached application form is to be used when claiming a refund of RST paid on goods removed for permanent use outside Ontario.  Purchasers will only be eligible for a refund where the:  
a) goods are permanently removed from Ontario within 30 days of being bought;  
b) RST paid on each invoice is $50 or more;  
c) refund claim is made within four years of buying the goods; and  
d) residents of other Canadian provinces pay the applicable sales tax to their home province on goods being claimed and provide proof of payment of tax.  

If the goods are purchased for use in a jurisdiction where sales tax is not payable, a copy of the bill of lading or customs documents must be provided as proof of removal. "

_______

Dealers in Ontario may not collect the PST from out of Province purchasers at the point of sale if 1.  they ship the vehicle to the buyer or 2.  the buyer has licence plates from their home province with them at the point of purchase .

Hope this helps.}

[ArticSteve]

Thats good info.  What is RST?  You mean PST right?

And this thing about attaching plates from a difference province.  I've attached plates from a different car to get the newly unregistered vehicle home before, but that is not legal and there is a hefty fine for that in Ontario (driving with plates registered to another vehicle).

I don't see how in a legal way a person can show up with a pair of out of province plates that are registered to another vehicle and drive away.  When the Ontario dealer gets an audit by the Ontario sale tax people what do they tell them about the missing sales tax.  That some guy showed up with a pair of plates from outside the province.

Then there is the thing about insurance.  Most policies state the policy is only in effect for liability if the vehicle is legally licensed for road use.  That is probably the most important element.  

So basically it seems that a buyer payes the Ontario PST, gets a legal set of plates in Ontario which makes the car insurable, drives back to Albert and applies for the PST refund and hope it comes.

[ovr50]

If that's the way it works in Ontario, it's not the way it works in BC. You don't need plates, you just get a Travel Permit (paper permit you stick to the window) which is good for "x" number of days to get you to your home province. You do need to have arranged for insurance to cover you during that trip. You do that in your home province also. When you get the vehicle back to home province, you register it and pay the PST then.  

I guess Ontario is different then?

[Sterling]

That's not the way it works in Alberta either. Once you have arranged insurance you can swap plates from another vehicle and have 14 days to register the new one.

What do they tell the tax people? They say that the car was purchased by someone that does not live in Ontario and was never registered there. The link posted by Ucda says it all.

AS's comment about insurance makes no sense either. You can get insurance all day long and never register the vehicle. There is nothing in insurance policies that requires a car be registered to get insurance.  

(Message edited by Sterling on January 17, 2005)

[ArticSteve]

Fact here in Ontario is that you cannot swap plates from one car to another legally on the sly.  I've done it and dudes who I have sold vehicles have done it, but it carry's a big fine for obvious reasons.

The 15 day trip permit is available for this purpose with the following conditions.

1. The mandatory Ontario buyer's package, which sets the sales tax rate and the official legal Bill of Sale, is filled out and signed by both seller and buyer.
2. the payment of the PST (which now looks like the PST can be claimed back later by mail)
3. that the vehicle is not presently registered as unfit.  The idea of the trip permit is also to allow folks to drive the vehicle around for the purposes of obtaining a safety certificate.  If you want to transfer the ownership officially from one person to another person, but there is no certificate yet then the only way you can do this is by registering the vehicle as "unfit".  Different colour permit actually so the cops can see what the status is at a glance.

So it appears that the original poster has no problems other than shelling out the PST for a few months or so before he gets it back.

Sterling:

Yes, you can purchase insurance all day long on anything.  But you must abide by their legal definitions on what constitutes a binding contract.  Read an Ontario automobile insurance policy completely if you have all day to do so.  The terms of the third liability sections state that the vehicle must be licensed for road use under the laws and regulations of Ontario, etc.  You go barreling down the road in a car still registered to someone else with an illegal set of plates on that car and the insurance company is going to claim that you voided the contents of the contract and if you disagree then, sue them.

Same thing with an Ontario Driver's License.

In Ontario, Driver's Licenses are good for 5 years.
Many folks forget to renew, for the outrageous cost of 75 bucks, or they put it off.  After midnight of the expiry date that person is not "licensed" to drive a vehicle in Ontario. One can cry and moan all they want in front of a judge, but the legal definition is that person is currently unlicensed.

Any Ontario Insurance Policy clearly states that the liabilty portion or any portion affected by road use is not in effect if the insured vehicle is operated by an unlicensed driver.  Call it mean, call it nit picking, but that is the rules and the rules are written by the Ontario Legislature and the Insurance Companies.  Same goes with people who have suspended driver's licenses; they may have a good policy on the car, but the insurance comapny will claim breach of contract in the event of a claim.

I worked on a case in which a mechanic had an elapsed driver's license and he accidently ran over a lady in a customer's car and as a result the insurance company that insured the car for the customer said "we're out of this one" and the couple eventually lost their house.  The Police Report indicated that a ticket was issue for an elapsed driver's license and that caught the eye of one of the adjusters.

To be technical about it, in Ontario the insurance company still payed out the loss, but added the couple and the mechanic as third parties to the action and then went after their assests to reinburse them for the payout which in this case was huge.

It wasn't morally right, but it was legally correct because it was stated in the insurance contract which the couple accepted by virtue of paying the premium; an implied contract they call that.

(Message edited by articsteve on January 17, 2005)

[Ucda]

Hi guys,

Sorry, just to clarify.

Ontario Retail Sales Tax (RST) is PST.

Also, I did not say the out of province purchaser who shows his plates to the dealer for the tax exemption would then put the plates on the vehicle he is buying.  In order to drive the vehicle away here in Ontario (back to his home province) he would normally get a trip permit.

As I said, there are only two ways a dealer can waive collecting the PST from an out of province buyer 1.  ship it to the buyer or 2.  be shown the buyer's licence plates from their home province at the time of the sale.

[ArticSteve]

Ucda, no problem because I never thought you said that plates can be swapped legally.

But why would a guy bring his plates from out of province if he can't put them on the Ontario bought vehicle?  What if he is in Ontario for reasons other than to buy a car and then decides to buy a car? He wouldn't have a set of plates with him just by chance?

Doesn't the out of town buyer pay the Ontario PST and then apply back to the Ontario government for the refund after it gets registered in the home province? That's what I though you said.  That makes sense.  The Ontario government isn't going to let folks escape the PST without some detailed documentation and signing their name to one of those government anti fraud declaration statements.

[Ucda]

Articsteve,

There are really 3 scenerios here.  The assumption is that, in all cases, the vehicle is registered to the buyer, here in Ontario (as it should be), before the vehicle is taken back to the "home" Province or US State.

1.  The buyer buys privately.  He pays the Ontario PST at the licence office and on return to his home Province he will register the vehicle there and can apply for a refund as explained earlier.

2.  The buyer buys from a dealer and has plates with him from his home Province or the dealer ships the vehicle to him so he does not pay PST.  For more on that see http://www.trd.fin.gov.on.ca/userfiles/page_attachments/Library/3/Rsie_sb904.htm

3.  The buyer buys from a dealer, pays the PST and applies, as in #1, for a refund from Ontario once he is back home.

Clear as mud?

[ArticSteve]

Kind of clear

So an Albert buyer, if he buys off a dealer, presents his plates and gets out of that dealership with out paying Ontario PST.  But he still needs a "Trip Permit" to "legally" drive the vehicle home.  So he goes to the Ontario Ministry office and gets the Trip Permit, gets nailed for the PST there, goes home and mails in the rebate application to receive his PST back.

Sure sounds like government logic to me.

Thanks for the material.  I stand corrected on that.

[ovr50]

No, as I understand it, he doesn't pay the vehicle PST on the Trip Permit (other than a few bucks on the actual permit cost itself, usually they are $25 or $50). He leaves ON w/out paying PST to ON, he pays PST in his home province (unless he's from AB).

[Railton]

...or the 4th scenario; The out of province purchasor buys privately, brings his own plates and certified check for the seller, mounts his out of province plates and drives home paying no PST.
Railton