Topic: Anti-Lock Brakes should be standard equipment on all vehicles so...

[S60]

Interesting read http://www.harristechnical.com/articles/abs2.pdf

[neil]

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/problems/Equipment/absbrakes.html

[sirAQUAMAN64]

My experience is that non-ABS equipped can stop quicker on dry roads. That is if you don't mind a flat patch on your tire's tread after. Depends on the vehicle. I'm sure some ABS equipped vehicles stop quicker with the system as well.

On snow or gravelly roads, my thoughts are that ABS vehicles take longer to stop than non-ABS vehicles. But, again, depends on the specific road conditions and your driver skill. No matter, I'd prefer steering control over locking up and trying to regain it.  

ABS for me.

(Message edited by sirAQUAMAN64 on December 01, 2004)

[EV-Light]

Im with u Siraqua (miracles are happening here?)

specially driving an SUV, ABS is a must!!

[Sterling]

If people are going to "forget" to steer when they jam on their ABS brakes, it is hardly the fault of the braking system. Like most driving issues, it boils down to the quality of the software behind the wheel.

The only time I will concede that non-ABS brakes are maybe better is when discussing an expert driver. I'm sure everyone on this board thinks they are, but I'd bet none of us could be considered expert.

[sirAQUAMAN64]

Multi... it is, after all, the time of the year mircales can happen  ;)

[Davidm]

I agree that for 95% of drivers ABS is the right choice whether it stops longer or shorter in a given situation - it is the most idiot-proof solution (and you'd think the manufacturers could remove the pedal pulsing feeling if they wanted to).  That said, some of us sometimes don't want ABS (liked my 91 Miata non-ABS brakes better than my 93 Miata ABS brakes - especially in "performance driving" situations) so I disagree with mandating it be in all vehicles (and the GM example is perfect here as well).  I like the mandated separate option, the only thing here is this may limit certain models from being imported to Canada if there is no ABS offered on the car anywhere else in the world.

If you want to mandate something, how about side curtain airbags.  Have been shown to make a large difference in injury/survival in side impacts, don't risk injury like current front airbags (ie, they don't punch anyone in the face), and are not a threat to children (that's why I'm saying curtains, and no side torso airbags which are a problem with children).

[Mdxtasy]

In regards to traction control, I've been in a couple Lexus IS300's and a few BMW's (3 and 5 series) with traction control.  The work flawlessly.  But Aquaman....your experience says it isn't good...mine tells me they work.  Potatoe...potatoe.  

As for the MDX...the technology it has is great.  Love it.  

[maritime_storm]

Here's the proof, as per Snowman's request. From Transport Canada's website;

Is the stopping distance shorter with ABS?  

No! From early commercials, it may have looked like you could stop on a dime. That instantaneous stop is not realistic. When braking on dry or wet roads your stopping distance will be about the same as with conventional brakes.

You should allow for a longer stopping distance with ABS than for conventional brakes when driving on gravel, slush, and snow. This is because the rotating tire will stay on top of this low traction road surface covering, and effectively "float" on this boundary layer.

A non ABS braked vehicle can lock its tires and create a snow plow effect in front of the tires which helps slow the vehicle. These locked tires can often find more traction below this boundary layer.

Here's the link;

http://www.tc.gc.ca/roadsafety/tp/tp13082/abs2_e.htm#stop

As I said in my first post, old news. And note this was updated on November 9, 2004

[Snowman]

thanks for the link Marrytime..

I would like to see data with 100 people taking a straight line breaking test on asphalt with dry, wet, snow covered, and icy conditions. I would like to see the test with a car equipped with abs and one without.

Some more info on the subject on the Transport Canada site:

Road surfaces and ABS

Road hazards that will cause the ABS to function unexpectedly are gravel, sand, ice, snow, mud, railway tracks, potholes, manhole covers, and even road markings when it is raining.  
The ABS cannot make up for road conditions or bad judgment. It is still the driver’s responsibility to drive at reasonable speeds for weather and traffic conditions. Always leave a margin of safety

Does Transport Canada have a safety standard for ABS?

No, not for ABS alone.
Transport Canada does have a standard for effectiveness of a vehicle’s intact brake system, which includes braking performance in case of a failure of part of the system

Do all ABS-equipped vehicles brake in the same way?

No. Some ABS equipped vehicles perform differently than others, which is why it is important to learn the braking characteristics of your vehicle.

And the two most important points regarding ABS:

How can I become familiar with my vehicle's ABS?

Find yourself an empty parking lot with lots of room to manoeuver. Practice hard braking stops from 30 km/h in this safe location.
Note the brake pedal feel, sound and vehicle control during braking in a turn or in a straight line. Remember, ABS will perform differently depending on the road surface or weather conditions.

Should I disconnect my ABS?

No. ABS provides the average driver with above average vehicle control in most conditions.

[RayT]

Oh man, here we go again.

Transport Canada is wrong, the NHTSA conducted a very thorough quantitative test that showed that ABS is superior to non-ABS on tarmac surface, whether wet or dry. On gravel, snow or ice, the distances will likely be longer.

I also have direct experience, in my advanced driving course I took years ago, we practiced non-ABS and ABS stops. ABS stopped shorter and more consistently. This was with FULL attention of the driver with MANY practice runs with a car that had exceptionally easy to modulate brakes. I would say there is only a small percentage of drivers (either your name is Schumacher or Makinen) that could outbrake ABS, but any regular driver without hours of practice to be able to brake hard in a panic situation is better off with ABS.

So yes, ABS is a must have. If you can afford the option, it's practically a no-brainer to choose it. I don't believe it should be mandated though.}

[Mdxtasy]

Personally, I find people who say that ABS systems are intrusive and aren't as good for them as a non-ABS equipped car is a person who thinks they are a better driver than they really are.  Sure there are times when ABS will get in the way, but that's when you use your skill to modulate the brake so the ABS does not kick in.

[ovr50]

I support ABS in vehicles totally and my earlier post was saying only that it should NOT be made  MANDATORY by govt. action. I am only opposed to the "govt action" part of it - in most cases ABS is a benefit.  

PS - the edit was to insert the word "NOT" above which totally alters the meaning of what I said.  

(Message edited by ovr50 on December 02, 2004)

[Mdxtasy]

Not knocking you Ovr...I feel ABS is a very valuable asset to have in a vehicle but it is not the job of the government to address this.  It's up to consumers and automakers.  

Here's a question....how difficult would it be to create the next generation ABS system where it could detect how hard the ABS is working and based on the readings, disable the ABS?  For example, if on slippery surfaces, the ABS kicks in and pulses the brake pedal 200 times/sec.  Based on the vehicles speed, could the automaker not devise a sensor that tells the braking system that it'll be better if the ABS stopped pulsing or reduce the number of pulses to the brakes?  

[S60]

The point is that the freaking auto mfgs have to be mandated to do something , because on their own they will not, the mfgs just produces autos with the lowest cost to build, without concern for the drivers safety.
And the general public will not force the mfgs, as the average Joe purchasing a car does not have a clue regarding these issues, the BIG issue with average Joe is the PRICE.

For people that do not want ABS, pull the fuse and drive.

[Suds]

i think that abs should be part of cars,like seatbelts.like no extra charge.but having the goverment mandate abs is gonna be a very bad and very long and painfull experiance.like will it be the cheapest or the most expensive brand of said abs.which make or model,ie which car brands would they mandate being there standard for best abs.which every other car maker has to adhere to.

[Sterling]

S60, so you want the gov't to force automakers to equip their cars with ABS but you want drivers to have the choice to use it (pull the fuse)?

[EV-Light]

hey MDX i guess that system would be dangerous!!

I think they should install a small button on the dash (just like ESP) where u could enable and disable the system!!
that would be the smartest choice for me.

[Shnak]

IMO, the best way would be to force manufacturers to OFFER the ABS as an option for extra costs. That way, someone that wants to buy an Accent with ABS will be able to.

[EV-Light]

thats another thing Shnak...and I agree with you...as a stand-alone option anyone who wants ABS would get it