Author Topic: Smart Car  (Read 44663 times)

X_ouch

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« Reply #60 on: October 19, 2004, 01:48:11 am »
How many times did other posters and I ask that question about winter driving of this car? I don't know the exact number but I remember it was a lot. It shows how much attention you give to other people beside you, you, you and yourself.

Force of friction = coefficient of the frictional force of the 4 tires and the road x ______________________

please fill in the blank.

(Message edited by x_ouch on October 19, 2004)

Offline Snowman

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« Reply #61 on: October 19, 2004, 07:41:11 am »
The lack of a response to your request would be a key indicator. Please fill in the blank.

Mdxtasy

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« Reply #62 on: October 19, 2004, 10:52:48 am »
The reason I ask is the recent snow we got, and how well it would plow along un plowed roads....being quite low.

I think it would be OK myself.  As Johngen said, ESP...narrow tires....it won't be a highway cruiser but a nice little car to tool around town in.  I have thought about picking one up next year when Canada gets more than 800.  Either that or a little Echo hatchback.  

(Message edited by mdxtasy on October 19, 2004)

Offline wing

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« Reply #63 on: October 19, 2004, 11:08:58 am »
Mdx, haha you thought cripes that is small.

I was driving around the other day in the S and what do I see coming in the other direction but a Smart car!

You know what, when I was in my S, I found it to be large haha.  It didn't seem smaller than any other car on the road at the time, it didn't look out of place at all.  It was short, but height and width seemed fine.

Of course Civics and corolla's seem GIGANTIC compared to my S that's makes me think of another topic...

Mdxtasy

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« Reply #64 on: October 19, 2004, 11:15:15 am »
I saw it and I swear I could have picked it up and just threw it in the back of the MDX. :-)  It is tall though.

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« Reply #65 on: October 19, 2004, 01:32:43 pm »
This Smart Car may not be for me or you right now but as time goes on there will many more versions made by other companies. I think once GM and Ford grab on to this concept you may find something even better for less money. These cars would be a great vehicle for city driving. I hope to be driving something similar with in 5 years.

Offline dave

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« Reply #66 on: October 19, 2004, 04:47:21 pm »
X_ouch, no one responds to you because you're a pain...and no one likes you.  

p.s. meow.

Offline Sir Osis of Liver

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« Reply #67 on: October 20, 2004, 04:11:00 pm »
Didn't really understand what you wanted to know X_ouch. Here's a bit of physics from Doug Muir, who has a grasp of these things:  

Unfortunately, doing accurate physical modeling of pneumatic tires is a very difficult task.  To begin with, even for the tires on your street car (to say nothing of the tires found in professional racing series) the equations are very stiff, which means you will either need a small timestep, an advanced integrator, or maybe both.
 
A simple model of tire forces is what's known as the brush model.  As the tire rotates, a new piece of rubber comes into contact with the ground at the front of the contact patch.  As that piece of rubber continues to rotate, frictional forces will deflect it from the circular path around the axis of rotation if there is a slip angle (for now we'll concentrate on side slip which gives rise to cornering forces, but a similar analysis applies to longitudinal slip, or spin, which gives rise to acceleration and braking forces).  The amount of deflection for a given piece of rubber will be given by its distance from the front of the contact patch and the tangent of the slip angle.  Now if we imagine that there is a spring connecting this piece of rubber to the point corresponding to it's natural path around the axis of rotation, we have a force of magnitude k*x*tan(slip) where k is the spring constant and x is the distance from the front of the contact patch.  Integrating this force over each piece of rubber in the contact patch gives us the total force generated by that tire.  The basic integral will look something like:
       _ x = l    _ y = w
 F =_ /         _/  k * x * tan(slip)
   x = 0    y = 0
 
That is the double integral from x to l (where l is the length of the contact patch) and from y to w (where w is the width of the contact patch) over k * x * tan(slip).  Noting that the expression we're integrating doesn't depend on y, we can rewrite it as:
       _ x = l
 F = _/      k * w * x * tan(slip)
   x = 0
 
Which reduces to  
 F = 0.5 * k * w * l * tan(slip);
 
Now if that's all we did, we would get cornering forces (assuming our simulator was stable, as I mentioned, for real tires k*w is a large quantity).  However, this model lets the cornering force grow purely as a function of slip angle. Going back to our model though, the deflection is caused by friction with the ground -- when the deflection force on that piece of rubber exceeds the frictional force, it will no longer continue to deflect with the tangent of the slip angle.  The point at which it will no longer deflect is:   k * w * d * tan(slip) = u * N / l
where d is the distance from the front of the contact patch where the rubber will start to slip, u is the coefficient of friction between the rubber and the road, and N is the normal load on the tire.  Assuming that the coefficient of friction is constant, our new equation for the tire force is:   F = 0.5 * k * w * l * tan(slip) when (d >= l)
 F = 0.5 * k * w * d * tan(slip) + (l - d) * u * N / l when (d < l) In the real world, the coefficient of friction will depend on many factors, including the temperature of the rubber, the normal load on the tire, the rolling speed of the tire, the sliding speed of the rubber, and of course the composition of the rubber and of the surface it's in contact with.  Modern racing tires can have coefficients of friction well over 1.0.
 
Anyway, this is a simple model of how a tire works, useful mainly to demonstrate how complex it can be to do an accurate simulation of vehicle dynamics.  Excellent references for this type of modeling are:
 
Tires, Suspension and Handling
John C. Dixon
ISBN: 15609-18314
 
Race Car Vehicle Dynamics
William F. Milliken
Douglas L. Milliken
ISBN: 1-156091-526-9
 
(sorry about the misshapen integral signs.-BT)

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Jimmery

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« Reply #68 on: October 21, 2004, 01:11:27 am »
Darn it Big_Thumb...  I was going to post the same equations!

X_ouch

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« Reply #69 on: October 21, 2004, 03:03:05 pm »
Snowman, I guess you didn't know the answer. So here is.... it's the... MASSSSSSSSSSSSSS  

See, Snowman, next time if you don't know the answer, you can do the following.
1)don't reply so you can pretend you didn't read my post
2)change the topic by reversing the joke. you did a pretty good job.
So basically, you should do it the ARNOLD way, which is :

THE Arnold way.

Anyways, 2 thumbs to big_thumb for the ......uh..... simplified explaination of the tire model. But I must say, I don't undestand your equations at all.

So for that matter, here is a better place to learn about tires.
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/tire.htm

Offline safristi

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« Reply #70 on: October 21, 2004, 03:42:08 pm »
BT yer Tan(slip) is showin'....
Time is to stop everything happening at once

Offline Sir Osis of Liver

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« Reply #71 on: October 21, 2004, 04:04:37 pm »
Basically, what you need to know is that your example would only be accurate if the car was at rest and the wheels couldn't rotate!

Smart cars have been sold in the northern European countries since their introduction, and have acquitted themselves rather well. If they work in Finland they’ll work here!

X_ouch

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« Reply #72 on: October 21, 2004, 04:08:42 pm »
Even though the tire is rolling, it will still be using its static's coefficient. I didn't pin point that out, why should I?

This is the first winter that.. uh Smart is having in Canada. Alors on va voir.

Offline Drivesideways

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« Reply #73 on: October 21, 2004, 04:15:39 pm »
....because goodness knows, there's never any snow/slush/rain/ice in Europe!
"PC Load Letter...what the f_ck does that mean?"

Offline johngenx

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« Reply #74 on: October 21, 2004, 05:00:19 pm »
Ah, Finland, home of sun, sand, and surf.  Where the sun shines 300 days a year and the bikinis are out year round.  Packing my thong as we speak.

Too bad Mercedes-Benz engineers didn't think to talk to our buddy "X-Pouch" (meaning his pouch is now "ex") when designing the Smart.  They would have saved hundreds of millions of dollars by simply showing the design to him.  "Nah, my mofo homies, it won't be working when it's sliding."  They would have responded with "Wassup, my dawg, we be grateful for the millions you saved us."  Well, except the actual e-mails would have had more spelling errors and no capitals.

Interesting that the Smart easily passes the difficult "Moose Test" with it's light weight, staggered tires and ESP system.

And if you have to ask what the Moose Test is, then YOU DON'T KNOW JACK ABOUT ANYTHING.

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« Reply #75 on: October 21, 2004, 05:11:02 pm »
Ooo!  I know this one.  The moose test is where one places one foot directly in front of the other while standing, then extends an arm to the side, bends it at the elbow and touches the nose, right?

No wait...that's the mooseHEAD test.  Rats!


Offline sirAQUAMAN64

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« Reply #76 on: October 21, 2004, 05:11:39 pm »

LMAO @ 'packing your thong'.

Thanks for the heads-up - I'll be sure to avoid that place during your vacation!

Yeah, hard to say about the Smart. I'm sure it does well, it's sold all over and they test those things extensively. Obviously it's more of a city car in the first place.  

Still like Jil MacIntosh's comment that it won't do doughnuts, but instead will spin a Timbit. Yummy!

Hey, come to think of it, I still need to get my deposit back from the Benz dealer! I'd best get on that.


(Message edited by sirAQUAMAN64 on October 21, 2004)
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Offline johngenx

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« Reply #77 on: October 21, 2004, 05:18:26 pm »
Thanks for the heads-up - I'll be sure to avoid that place during your vacation!

Speaking of heads-up, (heads out?)I like to WEAR MY THONG BACKWARDS.

Is that how X-ouch got his nickname?  It seems like an "ouch" to me!!

Offline ovr50

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« Reply #78 on: October 21, 2004, 05:54:29 pm »
TMI - just like Mdx sometimes - you two should get together - Blah
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Offline Snowman

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« Reply #79 on: October 21, 2004, 07:21:49 pm »
Geee Was this a test?...I failed then. People always asked me why I did not become an engineer. My response is always the same “I could not afford the cut in pay�