Topic: Book value

[Taximan]

On more than one occassion I have surfed the net trying for a small but critical piece of information. Someone please explain (not too technical) the difference between "Black Book Value" vs. "Blue Book Value".

[safristi]

BLACK BOOKRED BOOK

[Barrie1]

The one book "Black Book" is used to determine the price of a used vehicle for the Dealers and trade alike. The "Red Book" is used to determine how much Tax you will pay on purchasing this Vehicle from the Vendor, Dealer or Private owner. Thats the Main Differences between these 2 Books here in Canada.

[neil]

Taximan, what's the vehicle, and what info did you need,I'll try to help.

[Taximan]

Neil,

I do not have a specific vehicle yet. All I am trying to find out is what is the difference between Black Book and Blue Book value? The auction that I plan to get a vehicle from in the near future lists the Black Book value which I had not previously heard of, while I have known about the Blue Book value for quite a while. Thanks if you can explain the difference.

Please, no more BLACK BOOK RED BOOK replies. It was of no help. Some of us do have a life and when we get home from a 10+ hour work day, do not want to waste time sifting through insignificant stuff from someone who claims to not have a life. THANKS

[Crolly]

Hey Taximan, don't mind Saffy.  He's one of the regulars in this forum and normally uses his sense of humor to make visitors and newcomers feel welcome...  

I can say you came to the right place.  There are a lot of people here who can help you with your questions, including black/red books

[Barrie1]

Taximan I think the Main Difference is the Colour of the Books we use here in Canada. Our Red Book is for the Tax Grubbing Gov to collect what they think is fair on sales Tax. I think this is similar to your Blue Book and the Black Book is used by the Used Car Market Dealers and retailors to set their Prices from.  

[Taximan]

Okay, I gave myself away by using "color" that I'm south of the border to you. With all my surfing, I had not found such a forum except yours. "Hats off to the Canadians"

I own a taxicab and I plan to buy Nice sedan for a limo in a few months. Looks like I can get good info from here, if I pass Saffy's muster.

[neil]

Hey Taximan.  This forum is a great source, and somehow has stayed unique, refreshing, and helpful.  We have representation from people from all walks of life who have great input from experience to help people out.  Watch out for my new book, SAFFY FOR DUMMIES coming soon to a bookstore near you.

Speaking of books, the CANADIAN BLACK BOOK is published by WM WArd Publishing LTD in Markham Ontario.  It is pretty much the definitive guide for dealers buying cars wholesale.  The banks in Canada also use the Black book for determining maximum advance for financing.  WM Ward also publishes Residual Guides for the banks for determining future value, and in this guide is listed "Fair Market Value" or what some would consider "RED" pricing.  In 7 years in the car business in Canada I have to admit I have never seen a RED book.  It isn't used from this side of the industry.  
So BLACK BOOK is wholesale, or auction pricing published semi-monthly based on auction activity across canada.  The book also has regional % upgrades depending on what part of the country you live in (or where you are buying the car from) Sask has a 10% premium added over Toronto for example, although we never use the upgrade, and many banks don't allow for it either.  Hope that clears it up for you.

As an aside, Canadian Black Book pricing is not available on the internet, with a couple of exceptions.  There is a link through Daimlerchrysler.ca and Accesstoyota.com to appraise your trade which links to the CBB database.
The other way is posting here, and I'll give you the range, and the rest of us will give opinions based on what we've seen across the country!!}

[Barrie1]

Extremely Well Put Neil. You get a 5 star for that one for sure.  

[Brig]

To add to Neil's five-star advice...

And Saffy will say something silly again to get your knickers in a knot.

Sometimes I think it's best to be drunk when reading Saffy's posts.  Or stoned.  Or both.

He's like the mascot here.  Or the troll.  Or the goblin.  Or the hunchback of Notre-Dame.

Brigitte

[ovr50]

Or the halfback of Argonauts

[Diasbias]

Book Value

I just had my 1992 GMC Safari Extended van stolen and would like to know what value it was worth. 150,000Km. No rust. Loaded. PS,PW,Dual Air, All Wheel Drive, Command Start, Alarm, Good rubber.
I live in Edmonton, Alberta. Any ideas???

[Pikacha10]

maybe 2-4k for the safari?

dont quote me on it, its just a guess

[Insane]

Hi everyone:

I just want to clarify the above discussion regarding Red book vs Black book.  

I am looking to purchase a used vehicle that has "Black book" value of 20 - 25K.  Will the "Red book" value be higher, lower, or the same as this?

Thanks

[Mdxtasy]

Higher.  Black book is the wholesale cost.  It's typically what dealers will give on a trade.  How much more is dependant on the vehicle.

[Pops]

I'd like to take this thread a little further if I may.  I have access to black book values. In my used car shopping, is there a rule of thumb or reasonable mark up to assume over black book value if purchasing from a dealer? privately?  Earlier in this thread Neil says the regional markups listed in the black book aren't used - from what perspective is this comment - are you in the used car business? bank?  My experience would suggest that there certainly are regional price differences in used car prices.

[Sterling]

Neil is absolutely correct that the regional markups in the the Black Book are usually ignored. The numbers published in the Canadian Black Book are based on auction values from Toronto and Montreal. Markets thousands of kilometers away can have vastly different price structures and to just add X% to Toronto's price is not always accurate. For example, it is pretty obvious that the pick-up truck market in Montreal or Toronto will be a little bit different than the pick-up truck market in Alberta or Saskatchewan. These differences go beyond just adding to Toronto's numbers.

The second issue is that Canadian Black Book is published for the auto industry. It is not a guide for consumers. Frankly, most consumers do not understand what "wholesale" even means. Even when Toyota and Chrysler link to it, it is amazing how consumers seem to ignore the information about what constitutes "average" value or what reconditioning costs are. For example, I recently appraised a gentleman's high km 1997 F-150. Rough book value was $13000 + 10% regional markup, but there was no way this truck could be brought in for $14300, reconditioned, and then re-sold. I bid it at $8500. The customer went nuts. I brought him into my office put the phone on speaker and called 5 used car dealers and asked their opinion. Their numbers ranged from $7500-$9000. At this point the customer was totally confused and dumbfounded because he had put so much stock in knowing about the "secret" Black Book number for his truck. Clearly, the Black Book number was way off at $14300 for this market. An experienced used car dealer will know his own market and when he sees the black book number will know to deduct about $5000 for this type of vehicle. The numbers in the book are just guides, they are not absolutes.

[Pops]

Sterling - your point is well made.  Like most consumers, I am just trying to get as knowledgeable as possible before making a purchase.  Perhaps the 'magic' of the black book to a consumer like me is that it is almost always quoted as reference by a dealer appraising my vehicle (explaining to me why it's not worth as much as I thought) or justifying the price of the car I'm looking at - so we figure the same should work in reverse.  I.e., if we can estimate wholesale and add a fair markup we can estimate market retail value.  I guess it is not that simple!  Trying to understand the market isn't easy!

[Sterling]

The problem is that most people tend to be very selective about what information they use. The gentleman I mentioned above could've taken a little time to research the asking prices of trucks similar to his. He could've seen that autotrader.ca alone had about 20 similar vehicles for sale in this area for about $12,000. Based on that, it should've been obvious that it would be impossible to pay him $14300 and then re-sell it for a profit. Instead, he chose to focus on a number in a book that he really doesn't understand.

This is why "rules of thumb" of markups can be very dangerous if relied upon. I see this everyday where a person may assume that a price has $5000 markup built in. However, they have no idea that the car in question has been in stock for 100 days and has been priced at wholesale just to move it.

One rule of thumb I will mention is where a dealer offers a guaranteed trade allowance or a push, pull, or drag sale. If a dealer will guarantee $3000 for any trade then it is fair to assume that every price will have at least $3000 built into it.