Topic: Consumer Reports on average, electric vehicles are less reliable

[Ontariodriver]

On average, electric vehicles are less reliable

Consumer Reports' survey indicates that electric vehicles (EVs) from 2021 to 2023 faced nearly 80% more issues than internal combustion engines, with common problems in battery, charging, and build quality. The report attributes EVs' lower reliability to manufacturers adapting to new power systems. However, as understanding improves, reliability is expected to rise. Concerns over reliability, coupled with existing issues like higher costs and charging infrastructure, may deter some from switching to EVs. The survey notes a slowdown in EV sales growth and raises concerns about fuel economy requirements. Plug-in hybrids had more problems than fully electric vehicles, while traditional gas-electric hybrids were more reliable than gasoline cars. The 2023 EVs showed a narrower gap in problems, indicating potential overall reliability improvement.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/windsor/us-electric-vehicles-reliability-1.7043798

https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/car-reliability-owner-satisfaction/electric-vehicles-are-less-reliable-than-conventional-cars-a1047214174/

[rrocket]

Not super surprising with all this new tech. And some companies using consumers as beta testers.

[ArticSteve]

EVs or ICE, the consumer is always the test pilot and with the D3 it can go on for years. 

[Ontariodriver]

EVs or ICE, the consumer is always the test pilot and with the D3 it can go on for years. 

Even with decades of experience in the automotive industry, car manufacturers continue to grapple with the challenge of producing 100% reliable ICE, vehicles. Remember Lead-acid batteries, were invented in 1859 by the French. Lead Acid have seen only incremental progress over the years, with occasional improvements. The major shift came with the introduction of lithium-ion batteries, but these, too, present their own set of challenges. It has always puzzled me why manufacturers persist in knowingly using components with known issues in new cars year after year, such as problematic gearboxes. Finding alternative suppliers for these parts may be a challenging, which could explain this persistence in producing unreliable vehicles. Considering the lengthy history of internal combustion engines, one might wonder why it is taking so long to develop a reliable electric cars. Take North America, for instance, it wasn't until the 1970s that the Japanese demonstrated to the USA and the rest of the world that it was possible to produce reliable cars. Hopefully EV's it won't take as long as ICE.

[Fobroader]

I mean we've been doing this ICE since the 1800s and Kyundai still can't figure out how to not catch their vehicles on fire, Honda still has transmission problems, Subaru still can't figure out how to not make their engine run on two stroke oil/gas mix, GM messed around with their very bulletproof V8 so much that its now as reliable as something off of alibaba .....so I mean its only fair that EVs have some teething issues. Unless they are those horrible, no good, very bad CUV things, I wouldn't write off a whole segment.

[Bulkley]

It has always puzzled me why manufacturers persist in knowingly using components with known issues in new cars year after year, such as problematic gearboxes.

It's cost.  Often the cost looks trivial to us but to the corporate bean counter $0.25 is a fortune.   

Remember, manufacturers design and build for that 15 minute test drive.  They pass extra costs on to the end user.  If the customer wants a better gearbox he or she can march on down to the auto parts store and buy one. 

[EV Dan]

No problem if you are not shy to be on TV. Another guy buys an Ioniq and is "shocked" by the battery replacement cost. Calls the TV peeps and 15k become 0. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaEbdC0G-Uw

[Ontariodriver]

It has always puzzled me why manufacturers persist in knowingly using components with known issues in new cars year after year, such as problematic gearboxes.

It's cost.  Often the cost looks trivial to us but to the corporate bean counter $0.25 is a fortune.   

Remember, manufacturers design and build for that 15 minute test drive.  They pass extra costs on to the end user.  If the customer wants a better gearbox he or she can march on down to the auto parts store and buy one.

IMO, This how you sell as many cars as Toyota, and why majority of domestics are pants.

 

No problem if you are not shy to be on TV. Another guy buys an Ioniq and is "shocked" by the battery replacement cost. Calls the TV peeps and 15k become 0. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaEbdC0G-Uw

LOl, Customers, must expected to pay 15-25,000 for a battery replace. One guy was quoted almost 50,000, from Hyundai.

[sailor723]

One of the comments on the Youtube video suggested battery replacement might be more common in Canada due to cold weather. (Faster depletion requiring more charging cycles that shorten battery lifespan.)  I wonder if there is any truth to that theory?

[Ontariodriver]

One of the comments on the Youtube video suggested battery replacement might be more common in Canada due to cold weather. (Faster depletion requiring more charging cycles that shorten battery lifespan.)  I wonder if there is any truth to that theory?

Lithium-ion batteries can face numerous issues when exposed to cold temperatures. For instances the chemical reactions occurring within the battery tend to slow down at lower temperatures, resulting in a reduction in the amount of energy the battery can store and deliver. Cold temperatures can increase the internal resistance of the battery, leading to issues such as slower charging and discharging rates. Cold temperatures can encourage the formation of solid lithium on the battery's anode, a phenomenon known as lithium plating. This can diminish the overall capacity of the battery and, in severe cases, lead to a decline in battery performance or even permanent damage. Rapid temperature changes, such as moving a battery from a warm environment to a cold one, can exacerbate these challenges. Charging lithium-ion batteries efficiently becomes challenging in cold temperatures. Some devices and charging systems incorporate built-in safeguards that limit charging at low temperatures to prevent damage to the battery. Manufacturers often integrate temperature management systems into lithium-ion batteries. These systems may include features like thermal insulation, heating elements, and temperature sensors to help maintain optimal operating conditions. To prevent issues, you can take precautions such as keeping devices in insulated cases or avoiding prolonged exposure to extreme cold, such as storing them in a heated garage.

[EV Dan]

LOl, Customers, must expected to pay 15-25,000 for a battery replace. One guy was quoted almost 50,000, from Hyundai.

15k for a plug-in hybrid battery is steep but IMO buyers ought to be prepared for such an event and among other options at least look at the MFG warranty and decide if the car in question is right for them.

Hyundai and others, instead of trying to be "nice", when someone publicly raises a sh~t storm, should be offering extended MFG warranties on costly EV components. This way they will have a sort of insurance pool to pay out for occasional battery replacements.

Also, perhaps charging MSRP for such repairs is not a good idea. If the head office got involved in time and offered to replace it at cost, 5-6k I'd imagine, this situation could have been avoided.

[Ontariodriver]

LOl, Customers, must expected to pay 15-25,000 for a battery replace. One guy was quoted almost 50,000, from Hyundai.

15k for a plug-in hybrid battery is steep but IMO buyers ought to be prepared for such an event and among other options at least look at the MFG warranty and decide if the car in question is right for them.

Plug-in hybrid cars typically have larger and more advanced batteries compared to traditional hybrids. The cost of manufacturing and incorporating these larger batteries contributes to the higher price of fixing the plug-in hybrid vehicle. So I don't get why you would need to plug in with hybrid system, which works perfectly find with out the need to plug the car in and is more reliable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2e5An0_q3Q  <--30 Minutes.

CR Reports, Why is EV Reliability So Bad? | Talking Cars with Consumer Reports

[me_2]

My 2014 Volt saturday Dec 2nd odometer is 193,568 km
Son's 2015 Volt this morning odometer is 240,675 km
Both are still running strong for now.

[EV Dan]

My 2014 Volt saturday Dec 2nd odometer is 193,568 km
Son's 2015 Volt this morning odometer is 240,675 km
Both are still running strong for now.

GM seem to have done a good job on the battery management systems, related to liquid cooling, warming(?) and obviously power circuits. I thought H did too but then again there needs to be statistics, not a couple of media stories.

[rrocket]

Also, perhaps charging MSRP for such repairs is not a good idea. If the head office got involved in time and offered to replace it at cost, 5-6k I'd imagine, this situation could have been avoided.

I am quite sure they are making zero on this. Just like most EVs, manufacturers lose money on them.

So their "cost" on these is $15k...or more.

Trust me...a manufacturers "cost" on a $15k battery isn't $5k...otherwise these vehicles would be profit machines.

[EV Dan]

Also, perhaps charging MSRP for such repairs is not a good idea. If the head office got involved in time and offered to replace it at cost, 5-6k I'd imagine, this situation could have been avoided.

I am quite sure they are making zero on this. Just like most EVs, manufacturers lose money on them.

So their "cost" on these is $15k...or more.

Trust me...a manufacturers "cost" on a $15k battery isn't $5k...otherwise these vehicles would be profit machines.

If you google "ev battery cost per kwh 2023" and multiply that by 9 kWh then your cells will cost you ~ 1100 USD. Add labour and other battery components and $5-6k should cover this particular Ioniq plug-in battery.

[rrocket]

Also, perhaps charging MSRP for such repairs is not a good idea. If the head office got involved in time and offered to replace it at cost, 5-6k I'd imagine, this situation could have been avoided.

I am quite sure they are making zero on this. Just like most EVs, manufacturers lose money on them.

So their "cost" on these is $15k...or more.

Trust me...a manufacturers "cost" on a $15k battery isn't $5k...otherwise these vehicles would be profit machines.

If you google "ev battery cost per kwh 2023" and multiply that by 9 kWh then your cells will cost you ~ 1100 USD. Add labour and other battery components and $5-6k should cover this particular Ioniq plug-in battery.

You can Google anything you want. It's all fantasy dude.

If manufacturers were able to make $10k+ per battery (or had that type of margin)...EVs would be the most profitable vehicle in their line up.

Because barring the battery, the rest of an EV is just a normal car (more or less)...and they're already experts at building those.

In a moment of candor last week, GM said as much. There are currently negative margins on EVs. And it's mostly the batteries. And they have a partnership with LG who I'm guessing know how to make batteries as cheaply and efficiently as possible.

It's only most recently that manufacturers are being open (complaining?) about the costs of EVs. And barring a technological leap, the costs of batteries will continue to climb due to pricing/supply of necessary raw materials.

[Bulkley]

. . .  And barring a technological leap, the costs of batteries are going up due to pricing of raw materials.

Electric car battery prices are going back down faster than expected

[rrocket]

. . .  And barring a technological leap, the costs of batteries are going up due to pricing of raw materials.

Electric car battery prices are going back down faster than expected

I agree with that in the SHORT term. And have read similar. But that's the effect of global pandemic pricing spikes IMO..which seem to be coming back down to earth recently.

There is not a limitless supply (or suppliers) of these raw materials. On the low side, projections show a 10+ percent increase in demand YoY. And some of these materials are sourced from foreign countries. And not all of the foreign countries are friendly to the US.

 And moving forward (unless new battery chemistry) the demand of battery raw materials will easily exceed supply. Have even read that the demand for these raw materials for the industrial and consumer electronics market will exceed supply all on it's own....independent of any EV needs!

The data is all there if you own any mining stocks (or if you peruse mining industry reserve supply/demand figures)

[EV Dan]

Also, perhaps charging MSRP for such repairs is not a good idea. If the head office got involved in time and offered to replace it at cost, 5-6k I'd imagine, this situation could have been avoided.

I am quite sure they are making zero on this. Just like most EVs, manufacturers lose money on them.

So their "cost" on these is $15k...or more.

Trust me...a manufacturers "cost" on a $15k battery isn't $5k...otherwise these vehicles would be profit machines.

If you google "ev battery cost per kwh 2023" and multiply that by 9 kWh then your cells will cost you ~ 1100 USD. Add labour and other battery components and $5-6k should cover this particular Ioniq plug-in battery.

You can Google anything you want. It's all fantasy dude.

If manufacturers were able to make $10k+ per battery (or had that type of margin)...EVs would be the most profitable vehicle in their line up.

Because barring the battery, the rest of an EV is just a normal car (more or less)...and they're already experts at building those.

In a moment of candor last week, GM said as much. There are currently negative margins on EVs. And it's mostly the batteries. And they have a partnership with LG who I'm guessing know how to make batteries as cheaply and efficiently as possible.

It's only most recently that manufacturers are being open (complaining?) about the costs of EVs. And barring a technological leap, the costs of batteries will continue to climb due to pricing/supply of necessary raw materials.

In both of these recent cases Hyundai dealers had submitted quotes based on MSRP, 15k+ and 50k all in, depending on the battery size. I don't know if you've ever seen any actual parts department books but in case of H the dealer true cost is around half their "MSRP". So essentially they source a 9kwh battery for 7500 and sell it for 15k plus labour. Would a manufacturer sell a battery that costs them to make 7500 for 7500? Of course not. They add a margin too, maybe not a 100% markup, but not a zero one either. 5-6k is what it should cost for Hyundai Canada to replace a 9kWh pack.
Further examples to justify my math, in USD:
https://www.jdpower.com/cars/shopping-guides/how-often-do-tesla-batteries-need-to-be-replaced
We are talking 80kWh+ batteries here, and these are retail prices consumers pay.