Topic: The car market is turning.

[revalations]

A client wants a good sedan 5-7 yrs old. Really wants a mid-size car. Wants to keep it for quite some time so reliability is a factor. How much does a GOOD car cost VS one with a bad reputation? Here's todays example....

2017 Toyota Camry LE, 147,000 km, fairly basic, ex-rental, three small accidents (total $7800) it sold for $18,800

2017 Hyundai Sonata GL, 104Km, again, fairly basic but has a few more features than the Yota, clean title no accidents. Sells for $10,400

So, would you pay $8400 more for a car with 43,000 more km just because its far more reliable? Or would you buy the discount brand and warranty up as much as possible and cross your fingers? I really think that Sonata was a good buy, but the client (like many people) knows how reliable newer Hyundai's are and how the 2.4 in particular has a tendency to meltdown. This one might be tricky as his budget is $18,000 including any taxes.....

[ArticSteve]

That is SAD but true.  I'd take neither.  Buick Regal is the answer.

[TheHire]

So a very similar situation; I helped a family friend sell both their family cars before they moved out of the country. Called my wholesaler, got a reasonable value, and cut these guys a cheque.

One of the cars was a 2009-2010 Camry, base model four-cylinder. The other was a 2015-2016 Sonata. Can't remember the exact mileage, but both were base-ish models and the Sonata had much lower miles than the Camry. 

The two cars were worth just about the same money.

And yeah, I'd take the much newer, lower mile Sonata over an older, more worn out Camry.

[warp]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/car-market-analysis-1.6873747

Buying a car has never been more expensive, assuming you can even find one — here's why
Buyers have to wait months and years for their wheels, despite sky-high prices

Three years later, most of the weak links in the supply chain have been fixed, and customers are finally in the mood to buy a new set of wheels again, only to face a new conundrum: prices are higher than they've ever been — and that's if you can even find a car for sale.

Jennifer Nemet knows this first hand. She was in the market for her dream car, a plug-in Toyota Rav4 Prime, but says she was shocked when her local dealer told her how long she should expect to wait for one.

"'It's an eight-year wait,' he said," the Edmonton resident told CBC News in an interview. "They literally laughed at us."

She eventually settled on putting down a deposit for a non plug-in hybrid version of the same car, but was told it, too, would likely be a year away.

She and her husband patiently waited for more than 11 months with next-to-no news from their dealer, before deciding last month to poke their head into their local Mitsubishi dealership and ask about a hybrid Outlander, another model that had initially caught their eye.

She thought the best-case scenario was that the Mitsubishi wait list was shorter than the Toyota one she was already on, but was amazed to discover the dealer had several models she could take home that day. "I'm thrilled that we actually got one," she said. "We did not think we would have a vehicle to drive away in — that wasn't even on our minds because nobody has any."

Is Toyota deliberately withholding supply to foment shortages? Or is is that everybody is so caught up on the BEV/Hybrid hype that supply will never catch up?

According to Young, the average price of a Canadian passenger vehicle is just over $45,000 right now. That figure is up by 30 per cent since 2019, "but it would be misleading to suggest that all car prices skyrocketed in the pandemic," she said in an interview.

"A big part it was auto makers dedicating their limited supply of components into their most profitable vehicles."

So a pre-pandemic transaction price before taxes of $35,000 is now up by 30% to $45,000.

[Blueprint]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/car-market-analysis-1.6873747

Buying a car has never been more expensive, assuming you can even find one — here's why
Buyers have to wait months and years for their wheels, despite sky-high prices

Three years later, most of the weak links in the supply chain have been fixed, and customers are finally in the mood to buy a new set of wheels again, only to face a new conundrum: prices are higher than they've ever been — and that's if you can even find a car for sale.

Jennifer Nemet knows this first hand. She was in the market for her dream car, a plug-in Toyota Rav4 Prime, but says she was shocked when her local dealer told her how long she should expect to wait for one.

"'It's an eight-year wait,' he said," the Edmonton resident told CBC News in an interview. "They literally laughed at us."

She eventually settled on putting down a deposit for a non plug-in hybrid version of the same car, but was told it, too, would likely be a year away.

She and her husband patiently waited for more than 11 months with next-to-no news from their dealer, before deciding last month to poke their head into their local Mitsubishi dealership and ask about a hybrid Outlander, another model that had initially caught their eye.

She thought the best-case scenario was that the Mitsubishi wait list was shorter than the Toyota one she was already on, but was amazed to discover the dealer had several models she could take home that day. "I'm thrilled that we actually got one," she said. "We did not think we would have a vehicle to drive away in — that wasn't even on our minds because nobody has any."

Is Toyota deliberately withholding supply to foment shortages? Or is is that everybody is so caught up on the BEV/Hybrid hype that supply will never catch up?

According to Young, the average price of a Canadian passenger vehicle is just over $45,000 right now. That figure is up by 30 per cent since 2019, "but it would be misleading to suggest that all car prices skyrocketed in the pandemic," she said in an interview.

"A big part it was auto makers dedicating their limited supply of components into their most profitable vehicles."

So a pre-pandemic transaction price before taxes of $35,000 is now up by 30% to $45,000.

I was going to quote this news item too. Saw the TV version on The National, the buyer also mentioned the 8 year wait (same figure a Toyota Canada exec quoted me) but she also said the Toyota dealer was asking for a $25,000 markup 

Openly wondering if Toyota has not resolved the #cablegate issue and doesn't want too many liabilities...

[valuator]

Some of the price increase being labeled as "inflation" is absolutely manufacturers prioritizing more expensive, higher margin vehicles given constraints on parts availability.  I think the story touches on this but it's a bigger piece of the puzzle than people realize.  Like for like, prices may not go up much more than normal year-to-year increases, but average transaction price goes up significantly because only top level trims are available to be purchased.  It really annoys me because I am not normally a top trim shopper. 

[valuator]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/car-market-analysis-1.6873747

Buying a car has never been more expensive, assuming you can even find one — here's why
Buyers have to wait months and years for their wheels, despite sky-high prices

Three years later, most of the weak links in the supply chain have been fixed, and customers are finally in the mood to buy a new set of wheels again, only to face a new conundrum: prices are higher than they've ever been — and that's if you can even find a car for sale.

Jennifer Nemet knows this first hand. She was in the market for her dream car, a plug-in Toyota Rav4 Prime, but says she was shocked when her local dealer told her how long she should expect to wait for one.

"'It's an eight-year wait,' he said," the Edmonton resident told CBC News in an interview. "They literally laughed at us."

She eventually settled on putting down a deposit for a non plug-in hybrid version of the same car, but was told it, too, would likely be a year away.

She and her husband patiently waited for more than 11 months with next-to-no news from their dealer, before deciding last month to poke their head into their local Mitsubishi dealership and ask about a hybrid Outlander, another model that had initially caught their eye.

She thought the best-case scenario was that the Mitsubishi wait list was shorter than the Toyota one she was already on, but was amazed to discover the dealer had several models she could take home that day. "I'm thrilled that we actually got one," she said. "We did not think we would have a vehicle to drive away in — that wasn't even on our minds because nobody has any."

Is Toyota deliberately withholding supply to foment shortages? Or is is that everybody is so caught up on the BEV/Hybrid hype that supply will never catch up?

According to Young, the average price of a Canadian passenger vehicle is just over $45,000 right now. That figure is up by 30 per cent since 2019, "but it would be misleading to suggest that all car prices skyrocketed in the pandemic," she said in an interview.

"A big part it was auto makers dedicating their limited supply of components into their most profitable vehicles."

So a pre-pandemic transaction price before taxes of $35,000 is now up by 30% to $45,000.

I was going to quote this news item too. Saw the TV version on The National, the buyer also mentioned the 8 year wait (same figure a Toyota Canada exec quoted me) but she also said the Toyota dealer was asking for a $25,000 markup 

Openly wondering if Toyota has not resolved the #cablegate issue and doesn't want too many liabilities...

Or, Occam's Razor, the dealerships are just .

[Blueprint]

Some of the price increase being labeled as "inflation" is absolutely manufacturers prioritizing more expensive, higher margin vehicles given constraints on parts availability.  I think the story touches on this but it's a bigger piece of the puzzle than people realize.  Like for like, prices may not go up much more than normal year-to-year increases, but average transaction price goes up significantly because only top level trims are available to be purchased.  It really annoys me because I am not normally a top trim shopper.

The SUV-hungry masses are also paying dearly for their cravings, while pretty good cheap cars are still available. A basic Corolla Cross or a Camry SE are about even, for example. And a Sentra will give you an experience leagues ahead of that foul Kicks.

[warp]

Some of the price increase being labeled as "inflation" is absolutely manufacturers prioritizing more expensive, higher margin vehicles given constraints on parts availability.  I think the story touches on this but it's a bigger piece of the puzzle than people realize.  Like for like, prices may not go up much more than normal year-to-year increases, but average transaction price goes up significantly because only top level trims are available to be purchased.  It really annoys me because I am not normally a top trim shopper.

The SUV-hungry masses are also paying dearly for their cravings, while pretty good cheap cars are still available. A basic Corolla Cross or a Camry SE are about even, for example. And a Sentra will give you an experience leagues ahead of that foul Kicks.

I would say the SUV & hybrid hungry masses are paying dearly for their cravings. An anecdotal example: Somebody that I know looks to me for car advice since they know me as a car enthusiast. Annual household income well north of $500K but they are frugal when it comes to automobiles. A couple of years ago at the height of the vehicle shortage they booked a Highlander hybrid (without consulting me) and for a year had no clue as to when the vehicle would be available, so I advised them to book a regular ICE Highlander which they did last year and took delivery a few weeks ago. But they are still fretting about wanting a hybrid Highlander because it will save them gas!! The wife drives the Highlander, predominantly city driving in Toronto, so I told them that with the 10,000 km - 15,000 km she drives a year, the differential in city fuel consumption between the regular and hybrid Highlanders would be no more than 5 liters/100 km in a worst case scenario, which is 50-75 liters per month. Hardly something for a family with that kind of household income to fret about but at the end of my spiel I could see that they were still not entirely convinced because somehow the hybrid is better!! That is the kind of mindset that has created these 8 year waiting lists and there could be something as well to be said about cablegate not being resolved  as you have stated. 

[JohnnyMac]

I agree with all that's above but I'll also add in the lack of incentives and discounts that have dried up.  Add in the demise of small cars, and the big price increases of certain high volume vehicles has really impacted the overall average.  The Civic used to be the best selling car in Canada, now it's significantly more to buy and has impacted their sales.  Look at how much the new Crosstrek is.  These are very popular new vehicles that are being bought regularly by the public that have had big increases in price.  Add in the pickups and you have yourself a big average price increase, and that's not even factoring in the cost of borrowing right now.

[PJungnitsch]

The same thing happened to us in Edmonton. The Rav4 Prime was the first vehicle we inquired about. They told us three years wait at that time

Striking out into the PHEV powered unknown it's only competition was the Mitsubishi/Kiyundai

Side note, Jeff Foxworthy looks great in that story!

[PJungnitsch]

Had a walk through the local Honda lot on Sunday to see if they actually were loaded with stock. 172 total new vehicles listed on the website and it looked all there, endless rows of shiny new metal:

[JohnnyMac]

Had a walk through the local Honda lot on Sunday to see if they actually were loaded with stock. 172 total new vehicles listed on the website and it looked all there, endless rows of shiny new metal:

It’s because their price point and interest rates are above what the average consumer wants to pay.

[EV-Light]

Had a walk through the local Honda lot on Sunday to see if they actually were loaded with stock. 172 total new vehicles listed on the website and it looked all there, endless rows of shiny new metal:

DAMNNNNNN!!!!!


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[2JDM]

Looks like there will be some wiggle room for new CR-Vs now given the inventory.

The 2023 starting MSRP with freight included:

Forester base: $33,347
CX-5 GX AWD: $33,378.50
Rav4 LE AWD: $35,874.50
CR-V LX-B AWD: $40,058.50

Yeah...Honda is way up there.

[ArticSteve]

2024 CRV LX-B AWD in Ontario tax in;  $45,300 @ $903 for 60 mths.  What a deal!

Rough times are a coming ... permanently.

[Great_Big_Abyss]

I wonder if Honda will lower their prices for next year, or go the domestic route, and offer large incentives on the hood of their vehicles to bring the price down to the competiton?

Either way, it appears Honda suffered from a sudden rush of sh!t to the brains during the pandemic, and are going to pay the price now...

[valuator]

Looks like there will be some wiggle room for new CR-Vs now given the inventory.

The 2023 starting MSRP with freight included:

Forester base: $33,347
CX-5 GX AWD: $33,378.50
Rav4 LE AWD: $35,874.50
CR-V LX-B AWD: $40,058.50

Yeah...Honda is way up there.

I don't need to think very hard about that one....I'd buy a Forester and call it a day.

[Slow_lane]

Looks like there will be some wiggle room for new CR-Vs now given the inventory.

The 2023 starting MSRP with freight included:

Forester base: $33,347
CX-5 GX AWD: $33,378.50
Rav4 LE AWD: $35,874.50
CR-V LX-B AWD: $40,058.50

Yeah...Honda is way up there.

I don't need to think very hard about that one....I'd buy a Forester and call it a day.

No no no..... CX-5. 

[TheHire]

Looks like there will be some wiggle room for new CR-Vs now given the inventory.

The 2023 starting MSRP with freight included:

Forester base: $33,347
CX-5 GX AWD: $33,378.50
Rav4 LE AWD: $35,874.50
CR-V LX-B AWD: $40,058.50

Yeah...Honda is way up there.

I don't need to think very hard about that one....I'd buy a Forester and call it a day.

No no no..... CX-5.