Author Topic: 2023 Genesis G90 Review  (Read 6194 times)

Offline JohnnyMac

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Re: 2023 Genesis G90 Review
« Reply #20 on: December 16, 2022, 07:48:41 pm »
I never understood badge envy and needing something simply because of the recognition of being wealthy.  If something is good or special, I’m interested, don’t care if it’s made by the Germans or Koreans, or heaven forbid the Americans. 

The thing that Genesis is lacking is performance models and a coupe GT car.  They have proven that they can compete in luxury and style, now it needs to be performance (which the Hyundai N brand is doing a decent job of).

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Re: 2023 Genesis G90 Review
« Reply #21 on: December 16, 2022, 07:54:50 pm »
They used to have a couple GT car... A decent one, too.

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Re: 2023 Genesis G90 Review
« Reply #22 on: December 16, 2022, 08:07:47 pm »
Saw one for the first time the other day, it REALLY stands out and looks the part as an expensive sedan. I hope they do well and more people start ignoring the badge and give them a chance.

Offline Firm

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Re: 2023 Genesis G90 Review
« Reply #23 on: December 16, 2022, 08:41:55 pm »
Amazing wheel design, love that. The rest of the design is kinda meh for me....I really dislike that C-pillar and rear quarter panel area, and that weird '3-peice' rear side window. They did it to make the c-pillar look thinner, but they would've been better off sticking with a more traditional sedan roofline. Too much 'sportback' going on.

I agree with AS on the Mercedes buyers too....Lots of S-Class around here, and nobody that buys one of those new is out shopping around, they just default to the biggest Mercedes that suits their taste and move on.  A good buddy of mine is a G-Wagon guy, every couple of years his sales guy calls up and asks what specs he wants for the next one, and he swaps them out.

Offline Jaeger

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Re: 2023 Genesis G90 Review
« Reply #24 on: December 17, 2022, 03:24:06 am »
I never understood badge envy and needing something simply because of the recognition of being wealthy.  If something is good or special, I’m interested, don’t care if it’s made by the Germans or Koreans, or heaven forbid the Americans. 

The thing that Genesis is lacking is performance models and a coupe GT car.  They have proven that they can compete in luxury and style, now it needs to be performance (which the Hyundai N brand is doing a decent job of).

Agreed.  I guess some people need 'X' badge for validation - but their mistake is believing that personal validation can be purchased. But there are more Trumps in the world than Buffets.  I guess opinions differ on which of those is the pretender.  ;)
« Last Edit: December 17, 2022, 04:08:40 am by Jaeger »
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Re: 2023 Genesis G90 Review
« Reply #25 on: December 17, 2022, 06:04:27 am »
I never understood badge envy and needing something simply because of the recognition of being wealthy.  If something is good or special, I’m interested, don’t care if it’s made by the Germans or Koreans, or heaven forbid the Americans. 

The thing that Genesis is lacking is performance models and a coupe GT car.  They have proven that they can compete in luxury and style, now it needs to be performance (which the Hyundai N brand is doing a decent job of).

Agreed.  I guess some people need 'X' badge for validation - but their mistake is believing that personal validation can be purchased. But there are more Trumps in the world than Buffets.  I guess opinions differ on which of those is the pretender.  ;)

And some people just generally prefer European (read German) cars for the "feel" (ambiance, steering, ride, interior design, switch gear feel etc) . I freely acknowledge there may be a degree of cognitive dissonance involved  but I definitely fall into that group. 

My view may also be coloured by my experiences as a dealer back in the 90's. MB (at the time)  bent over backwards to work together with dealers to ensure their success.  DSM's had a lot of discretion they were almost always willing to extend some form of "goodwill" to out of warranty cars belonging to "good" customers. Hyundai's main goal in life seemed to be to deny, delay and/or reduce labour times on as many warranty claims as possible.......and they had a Shitload of them! They didn't seem to care about screwing the customer or the dealer as long as they reduced costs.  ::)

I've ridden in and driven some high-end Lexus products and always came away thinking "very nice car but not for me"

Fair?  maybe not but our opinions are always influenced by our experiences.
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Offline JohnnyMac

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Re: 2023 Genesis G90 Review
« Reply #26 on: December 17, 2022, 08:09:28 am »
My issue is not with people who prefer German brands, my issue is with people who literally don’t go out to drive the 5-6 big sedans on the market to make an EDUCATED decision.  I think that’s all Genesis needs, just give it a chance and they would earn some of those sales.

Sailor makes a good point about dealer, experience, etc.  But stating that the service at Genesis will be exactly the same as at Hyundai/Kia is like saying Audi will have the same experience as the VW dealer or Toyota and Lexus.  Maybe back when it was combined dealer I could agree but now they are their own thing.

Thinking that reliability or issues outside of warranty are something the average luxury barge buyer likely doesn’t worry much about as they replace them before those things occur. 

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Re: 2023 Genesis G90 Review
« Reply #27 on: December 17, 2022, 09:02:30 am »


Sailor makes a good point about dealer, experience, etc.  But stating that the service at Genesis will be exactly the same as at Hyundai/Kia is like saying Audi will have the same experience as the VW dealer or Toyota and Lexus.  Maybe back when it was combined dealer I could agree but now they are their own thing.

Thinking that reliability or issues outside of warranty are something the average luxury barge buyer likely doesn’t worry much about as they replace them before those things occur. 

Dealer experience? With a Genesis that should not be an issue, you should never have to go there. For service they will bring you a loaner, take your car in and bring it back to you when done.

For reliability? My son lowly Kia Rio is getting almost 10 years old and has been almost bullet proof. One set of brakes, a link kit for the front suspension and regular maintenance is all that has been required. So I would not be concerned. Yes Lexus MAY be one half notch better, but this should be light years ahead German brands for reliability and maintenance costs.

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Re: 2023 Genesis G90 Review
« Reply #28 on: December 17, 2022, 09:17:55 am »
My comment wasn't about a customer's dealer experience with Hyundai but rather about seeing how Hyundai treated dealers and customers from when I was in the ownership group of several dealerships (including  Hyundai and MB dealerships) some years ago.  Mercedes Benz was a class act in the way they treated both their customers and their dealers.   Hyundai?  .............not so much. Of course this was years ago and things may have changed but it certainly continues to colour my view of Hyundai.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2022, 09:49:05 am by sailor723 »

Offline Dante

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Re: 2023 Genesis G90 Review
« Reply #29 on: December 17, 2022, 11:33:54 pm »
Brand recognition is one of the most important asset for any company. It takes many decades and many billions to build it and maintain it. For a luxury brand, brand recognition is even more critical and without it, cannot exist. "Value" or "bang for the buck" is irrelevant in the luxury market. People/companies dumping 6 figures on a car are not looking for value but for the prestige that comes with the product.

Think about it...if tomorrow Timex makes the best and most beautiful watch in the world under a new brand called for the sake of the argument "Phoenix" (no one really heard about it) anyone imagines that rich people will flock to buy it instead of a Rolex or whatever other established luxury brands they know of and usually buy? Not a chance in the world IMO... The association with a brand you buy from  Walmart (assume they have ever set foot in one) will last forever...
Mercedes, BMW, Bentley, RR, etc never made made mainstream cars mind you start as a spin-off from mainstream.

Just look at all other mainstream manufacturers with spinoff luxury brands...Acura, Infiniti... They have never managed to dethrone the Germans after decades. Lexus got closer because they also had exceptional products backed by Toyota's recognized reliability reputation, but even for them it was/is tough.

On the other hand, true or not, in most people's mind Hyundai is still associated with value rather than anything else. Hyundai's press in recent years is not exactly favorable either.

Us here know about Genesis and the fact that they make good products, but probably 99% of the rich people most likely don't know and don't care and this is what makes it or break it.
.

Offline ArticSteve

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Re: 2023 Genesis G90 Review
« Reply #30 on: December 18, 2022, 07:20:23 pm »
I've ridden in and driven some high-end Lexus products and always came away thinking "very nice car but not for me"

That's the thing ...   a Lexus is a Toyota and a "Genesis" is a Hyundai.  A Mercedes is a Mercedes and a BMW is a BMW.  Audi  ???  Hybrid somewhere between VW and Porsche.  Interesting brand.

The Savage just very recently announced the G90 the best ultra luxo vehicle based soley on msrp.

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Re: 2023 Genesis G90 Review
« Reply #31 on: December 18, 2022, 08:58:57 pm »
Brand recognition is one of the most important asset for any company. It takes many decades and many billions to build it and maintain it. For a luxury brand, brand recognition is even more critical and without it, cannot exist. "Value" or "bang for the buck" is irrelevant in the luxury market. People/companies dumping 6 figures on a car are not looking for value but for the prestige that comes with the product.

Think about it...if tomorrow Timex makes the best and most beautiful watch in the world under a new brand called for the sake of the argument "Phoenix" (no one really heard about it) anyone imagines that rich people will flock to buy it instead of a Rolex or whatever other established luxury brands they know of and usually buy? Not a chance in the world IMO... The association with a brand you buy from  Walmart (assume they have ever set foot in one) will last forever...
Mercedes, BMW, Bentley, RR, etc never made made mainstream cars mind you start as a spin-off from mainstream.

Just look at all other mainstream manufacturers with spinoff luxury brands...Acura, Infiniti... They have never managed to dethrone the Germans after decades. Lexus got closer because they also had exceptional products backed by Toyota's recognized reliability reputation, but even for them it was/is tough.

On the other hand, true or not, in most people's mind Hyundai is still associated with value rather than anything else. Hyundai's press in recent years is not exactly favorable either.

Us here know about Genesis and the fact that they make good products, but probably 99% of the rich people most likely don't know and don't care and this is what makes it or break it.
.

I agree with this. If the goal is to get a share of the top tier luxury market though, you need to start somewhere, and I think Genesis understands the mission; distancing themselves from the trainwreck that is Hyundai being an important piece of that. They need an 'in' though...something groundbreaking that gets the brand on the radar of their target audience, and that's what they haven't found yet - and quite honestly, that's the difficult part.

Lexus has come the closest, maybe even to some degree they're there. However, I think there's more to the Lexus story than simply entering the market with a terrific product, which they did, but also what the competition was doing. When Lexus came on the scene in the late 80's/early 90's, Cadillac, who previously enjoyed a massive share of the luxury car market, was absolutely bleeding customers. They had properly fubar'd the whole 'downsizing' thing, and totally lost their core market, while failing to attract the new younger demographic that they wanted. Their share, and to some degree Lincoln's who hadn't screwed up as bad but were still flailing around, was up for grabs and Cadillac's customers were shopping around; and Lexus was there with a car that was a lot more like what Cadillac should have been building. When Cadillac finally got their act together and started building the right cars, the NorthStar fiasco kept them down and Lexus kept growing.

So, I don't think Lexus did much to take buyers from the Germans...I think their success was pulling the more traditional luxury buyers away from Cadillac/Lincoln. That was their 'in'.

Unfortunately for Genesis...The German's are pretty good at not totally screwing up their fleet and losing their clientele, and Cadillac/Lincoln don't have enough share (excluding SUVs and limo fleets) to steal.

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Re: 2023 Genesis G90 Review
« Reply #32 on: December 18, 2022, 09:46:10 pm »
A Mercedes is a Mercedes and a BMW is a BMW.

Much more so here than in Europe. Lots of 'ordinary' Bimmers and Mercs there

Here they trade harder on European cachet

Offline OliverD

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Re: 2023 Genesis G90 Review
« Reply #33 on: December 18, 2022, 10:33:03 pm »
Brand recognition is one of the most important asset for any company. It takes many decades and many billions to build it and maintain it. For a luxury brand, brand recognition is even more critical and without it, cannot exist. "Value" or "bang for the buck" is irrelevant in the luxury market. People/companies dumping 6 figures on a car are not looking for value but for the prestige that comes with the product.

Think about it...if tomorrow Timex makes the best and most beautiful watch in the world under a new brand called for the sake of the argument "Phoenix" (no one really heard about it) anyone imagines that rich people will flock to buy it instead of a Rolex or whatever other established luxury brands they know of and usually buy? Not a chance in the world IMO... The association with a brand you buy from  Walmart (assume they have ever set foot in one) will last forever...
Mercedes, BMW, Bentley, RR, etc never made made mainstream cars mind you start as a spin-off from mainstream.

Just look at all other mainstream manufacturers with spinoff luxury brands...Acura, Infiniti... They have never managed to dethrone the Germans after decades. Lexus got closer because they also had exceptional products backed by Toyota's recognized reliability reputation, but even for them it was/is tough.

On the other hand, true or not, in most people's mind Hyundai is still associated with value rather than anything else. Hyundai's press in recent years is not exactly favorable either.

Us here know about Genesis and the fact that they make good products, but probably 99% of the rich people most likely don't know and don't care and this is what makes it or break it.
.

I agree with this. If the goal is to get a share of the top tier luxury market though, you need to start somewhere, and I think Genesis understands the mission; distancing themselves from the trainwreck that is Hyundai being an important piece of that. They need an 'in' though...something groundbreaking that gets the brand on the radar of their target audience, and that's what they haven't found yet - and quite honestly, that's the difficult part.

Lexus has come the closest, maybe even to some degree they're there. However, I think there's more to the Lexus story than simply entering the market with a terrific product, which they did, but also what the competition was doing. When Lexus came on the scene in the late 80's/early 90's, Cadillac, who previously enjoyed a massive share of the luxury car market, was absolutely bleeding customers. They had properly fubar'd the whole 'downsizing' thing, and totally lost their core market, while failing to attract the new younger demographic that they wanted. Their share, and to some degree Lincoln's who hadn't screwed up as bad but were still flailing around, was up for grabs and Cadillac's customers were shopping around; and Lexus was there with a car that was a lot more like what Cadillac should have been building. When Cadillac finally got their act together and started building the right cars, the NorthStar fiasco kept them down and Lexus kept growing.

So, I don't think Lexus did much to take buyers from the Germans...I think their success was pulling the more traditional luxury buyers away from Cadillac/Lincoln. That was their 'in'.

Unfortunately for Genesis...The German's are pretty good at not totally screwing up their fleet and losing their clientele, and Cadillac/Lincoln don't have enough share (excluding SUVs and limo fleets) to steal.

An interesting perspective to compare Lexus to the American brands. I think all of what I've read since the debut of Lexus has compared it primarily to the German brands. The original LS400 was much closer in specs to the S-class than to any Cadillac. When it debuted it started at $35k US. Meanwhile a 1990 420SEL was about $64k. That's an insane price difference for what were effectively direct competitors. And a 1990 Cadillac STS (smaller, FWD) was about $36k (though they sold in tiny numbers relative to the $31k Seville).

Genesis simply doesn't have the same price advantage that Lexus did, and the economics around building big fancy cars these days means they can't undercut the competition like Lexus did. Arguably, the 7-series and S-class were quite overpriced. Those brands weren't chasing volumes the way they do today, and their competitors were mediocre and not much cheaper. Then again, we be in an era where luxury cars are again overpriced Almost everything at the higher end of the market is up five figures in the past three years – in some cases prices have increased by tens of thousands. This can't be sustainable.

Offline rrocket

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Re: 2023 Genesis G90 Review
« Reply #34 on: December 19, 2022, 03:18:37 am »




An interesting perspective to compare Lexus to the American brands. I think all of what I've read since the debut of Lexus has compared it primarily to the German brands.

Yep. German was direct competition.

And for American luxury car lovers...most would never be caught dead behind the wheel of a Japanese car.
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Offline sailor723

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Re: 2023 Genesis G90 Review
« Reply #35 on: December 19, 2022, 04:13:59 am »
I agree with Firm on this one. When Lexus arrived in the 90's I saw them as a high quality, well built and reliable copy of a Cadillac. While they certainly took some buyers from MB it was never the ones that cared about the driving feel or experience. I still remember my first ride in a LS400 and being amazed (not in a good way) had how soft and floaty the ride was. However, for many people that was an attraction. 

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Re: 2023 Genesis G90 Review
« Reply #36 on: December 19, 2022, 08:36:57 am »
I have this one in March. Hopefully by then I won't be filling these exquisite wheels with slush  :P

As I live in the GMA's equivalent of Oakville, Genesis sales are mostly GV80, GV70 and even GV60. The sedans are nowhere to be seen, but the trend is similar with other premium brands. Everybody's buying SUV's.
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Re: 2023 Genesis G90 Review
« Reply #37 on: December 19, 2022, 08:51:49 am »
My issue is not with people who prefer German brands, my issue is with people who literally don’t go out to drive the 5-6 big sedans on the market to make an EDUCATED decision.  I think that’s all Genesis needs, just give it a chance and they would earn some of those sales.

I don't see the problem with that. Some people know what they want. Personally I've done very little comparison shopping when buying cars. I either have my heart set on something specific or an opportunity to own something I'm interested in comes up. I could care less about driving every car in the segment to make a decision.

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Re: 2023 Genesis G90 Review
« Reply #38 on: December 19, 2022, 09:20:26 am »
Brand recognition is one of the most important asset for any company. It takes many decades and many billions to build it and maintain it. For a luxury brand, brand recognition is even more critical and without it, cannot exist. "Value" or "bang for the buck" is irrelevant in the luxury market. People/companies dumping 6 figures on a car are not looking for value but for the prestige that comes with the product.

Think about it...if tomorrow Timex makes the best and most beautiful watch in the world under a new brand called for the sake of the argument "Phoenix" (no one really heard about it) anyone imagines that rich people will flock to buy it instead of a Rolex or whatever other established luxury brands they know of and usually buy? Not a chance in the world IMO... The association with a brand you buy from  Walmart (assume they have ever set foot in one) will last forever...
Mercedes, BMW, Bentley, RR, etc never made made mainstream cars mind you start as a spin-off from mainstream.

Just look at all other mainstream manufacturers with spinoff luxury brands...Acura, Infiniti... They have never managed to dethrone the Germans after decades. Lexus got closer because they also had exceptional products backed by Toyota's recognized reliability reputation, but even for them it was/is tough.

On the other hand, true or not, in most people's mind Hyundai is still associated with value rather than anything else. Hyundai's press in recent years is not exactly favorable either.

Us here know about Genesis and the fact that they make good products, but probably 99% of the rich people most likely don't know and don't care and this is what makes it or break it.
.

I agree with this. If the goal is to get a share of the top tier luxury market though, you need to start somewhere, and I think Genesis understands the mission; distancing themselves from the trainwreck that is Hyundai being an important piece of that. They need an 'in' though...something groundbreaking that gets the brand on the radar of their target audience, and that's what they haven't found yet - and quite honestly, that's the difficult part.

Lexus has come the closest, maybe even to some degree they're there. However, I think there's more to the Lexus story than simply entering the market with a terrific product, which they did, but also what the competition was doing. When Lexus came on the scene in the late 80's/early 90's, Cadillac, who previously enjoyed a massive share of the luxury car market, was absolutely bleeding customers. They had properly fubar'd the whole 'downsizing' thing, and totally lost their core market, while failing to attract the new younger demographic that they wanted. Their share, and to some degree Lincoln's who hadn't screwed up as bad but were still flailing around, was up for grabs and Cadillac's customers were shopping around; and Lexus was there with a car that was a lot more like what Cadillac should have been building. When Cadillac finally got their act together and started building the right cars, the NorthStar fiasco kept them down and Lexus kept growing.

So, I don't think Lexus did much to take buyers from the Germans...I think their success was pulling the more traditional luxury buyers away from Cadillac/Lincoln. That was their 'in'.

Unfortunately for Genesis...The German's are pretty good at not totally screwing up their fleet and losing their clientele, and Cadillac/Lincoln don't have enough share (excluding SUVs and limo fleets) to steal.

An interesting perspective to compare Lexus to the American brands. I think all of what I've read since the debut of Lexus has compared it primarily to the German brands. The original LS400 was much closer in specs to the S-class than to any Cadillac. When it debuted it started at $35k US. Meanwhile a 1990 420SEL was about $64k. That's an insane price difference for what were effectively direct competitors. And a 1990 Cadillac STS (smaller, FWD) was about $36k (though they sold in tiny numbers relative to the $31k Seville).

Genesis simply doesn't have the same price advantage that Lexus did, and the economics around building big fancy cars these days means they can't undercut the competition like Lexus did. Arguably, the 7-series and S-class were quite overpriced. Those brands weren't chasing volumes the way they do today, and their competitors were mediocre and not much cheaper. Then again, we be in an era where luxury cars are again overpriced Almost everything at the higher end of the market is up five figures in the past three years – in some cases prices have increased by tens of thousands. This can't be sustainable.

I am sure there are examples of people who had a bad experience with a MB or BMW product and made the jump, but I can't see many 460/560SEL buyers even consider a Lexus at that point, especially at half the price - they had an image to keep up. I do know that Cadillac lost lots of share with customers who hated the new smaller FWD units....Lexus was offering exactly what they wanted, a big full-sized RWD car that floated down the road - for the same price they were expecting to pay for a Seville or Eldorado.




Offline Firm

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Re: 2023 Genesis G90 Review
« Reply #39 on: December 19, 2022, 09:25:45 am »
Even look at the market today.....If you're a driving enthusiast and want a car that's going to satisfy you dynamically, you're more often than not in one of the German brands. If you're less of an enthusiast driver and just want a comfy luxury car, you're buying a Lexus.

Exception to that rule is the multi-car people...I have zero interest in a 'sporty' luxury barge because I have sports/performance cars in the fleet. So I'd rather have something at the other end of the spectrum.

Cadillac still can't get it figured out either....The CTX line skews very sporty, and you're just not going to displace the Germans in that space. They really should go back to building a 'better Lexus' - I think they still have the brand power to make a mark with the right cars.