Topic: 2023 Genesis G90 Review

[OliverD]

The Q7 and GLS have been around for 15 years now and have arguably always been Escalade competitors even if they're smaller and not quite as capable from a towing and hauling POV.

[Blueprint]

Even look at the market today.....If you're a driving enthusiast and want a car that's going to satisfy you dynamically, you're more often than not in one of the German brands. If you're less of an enthusiast driver and just want a comfy luxury car, you're buying a Lexus.

Exception to that rule is the multi-car people...I have zero interest in a 'sporty' luxury barge because I have sports/performance cars in the fleet. So I'd rather have something at the other end of the spectrum.

Cadillac still can't get it figured out either....The CTX line skews very sporty, and you're just not going to displace the Germans in that space. They really should go back to building a 'better Lexus' - I think they still have the brand power to make a mark with the right cars.

They struck gold with the Escalade though...

I've always thought of Escalade as one very powerful example of brand recognition.... In my opinion, there were many bad years in its relatively recent history (last 20-30 years) where design and build quality in and out wasn't quite up to luxury expectations, yet people kept buying them as a status symbol more than anything else although they weren't cheap not to mention there were much better vehicles out there for the money.

Interesting, well now you have me curious, what was superior in 2008, or 2013?  Has to be able to fit 7 grown people comfortably with cargo space and tow 7,000lbs, and be from a luxury brand.  Exclude other GM full size SUVs, as they are basically the same as the Slade.  The only one that I can think of in those time periods are the Lexus LX, Lincoln Navigator, and that’s it.

I may be wrong, but towing capacity or even the number of seats were/are hardly the key selling points for new Escalade customers.

Nice dodging of the question.

No, not dodging the question, just giving my opinion. You are most likely correct saying it was nothing else out there that could meet those criteria, but I'm of the opinion that those were not at the top of the list for people buying a new Escalade. I can very well be wrong but I don't recall frequently seeing Escalades towing and most I see around seem to ferry normal size families....

The point I was making is there there WEREN’T better options back then as none of the Germans, Italians, British, made a full size SUV.  Your choices were Slade (or other GM options), Navigator, and to a lesser degree the Lexus LX.  So your statement about there being better choices is false.   Nowadays there are more options, but was not the case 5-10 years ago.

Q7, MB GL, Range Rover were full size, no? Maybe not suitable for 7 adults and cargo or towing 10,000 lbs but still full size although not as big as Slade or siblings, but still sizeable... Were they "better"? It's up for debate, but they were out there as options at the time.

Those did indeed have a 3rd row, just none suitable for adults and zero cargo space.  The newer versions are a bit better but few really compete with true full size SUVs.

The previous-gen big GM SUVs were not that good for passengers either. 2nd row seats were too low, ditto 3rd row, and "short" versions had next to no cargo room with the 3rd row up. And when folded, trunk floor was pretty high. Lots of wasted space in there, especially in width. The current generation has much, much better packaging. I reviewed the 'Slade, diesel Subarban and Tahoe Z71 and this last one was my favourite of the bunch - but it's too big for my own use (won't fit in many parkades...or my own garage) and, of course, 17 l/100 km...

[Jaeger]

I never understood badge envy and needing something simply because of the recognition of being wealthy.  If something is good or special, I’m interested, don’t care if it’s made by the Germans or Koreans, or heaven forbid the Americans. 

The thing that Genesis is lacking is performance models and a coupe GT car.  They have proven that they can compete in luxury and style, now it needs to be performance (which the Hyundai N brand is doing a decent job of).

Agreed.  I guess some people need 'X' badge for validation - but their mistake is believing that personal validation can be purchased. But there are more Trumps in the world than Buffets.  I guess opinions differ on which of those is the pretender. 

And some people just generally prefer European (read German) cars for the "feel" (ambiance, steering, ride, interior design, switch gear feel etc) .

Yes - both types of buyers exist - mindless badge snobs and buyers with just a general preference for German brands.

[DriverJeff]

Back to the G90 for a moment, if I may...

I did the comparo of the last gen G90 against the current gen Lexus LS last year and came away liking the Lexus interior for its higher quality and greater luxury, but preferred the 'old school' V8 in the Genesis from a driver's standpoint. I was worried that the new G90, having now gone to a V6 as well, would have lost some of its panache the way the LS has, but this new, albeit wildly complex, drivetrain is excellent. The new G90 is a much more engaging car to drive than the current gen Lexus LS and the luxury and finishes are now on par with the Lexus.

Will the G90 hold up over time as well as an LS?  Only time will tell, but I wouldn't bet on it.  But for someone looking to keep it for a few years before trading it on the next big baller sedan, it should serve just fine.  And I'll come out and say it, the on-road feel of this thing, especially cruising down the highway feels like any modern S-Class I've driven.  The same solidity and refinement here.  This is a genuinely exceptional machine.  Just don't spec yours with those annoying power door closers.  Uggh. 

North America isn't the only market for these, too. In Korea these must sell 10x the German competitors combined -- at least that was my observation there.

[DriverJeff]

Dunno if anyone sells any volume in the large luxury sedan sector. Think the only one that has reasonable numbers is the Lexus ES, soaking up those Crown Vic buyers retired with money

I think in the main they are producing them for the Korean market and if someone else else wants them, fine. The North American opportunity will be for the GV SUV's

I'm sure even Mercedes sells way more whatever-the-hell their SUV is compared with the equivalent E class and S class sedans.  Across the board, luxury sedans don't hold their value particularly well.  Some better than others, yes - but it's like ranking the 7 Dwarfs by height. It's also why they make great used car buys.

I think this thing looks pretty boss in profile.  If this is your pic Jeff, well done.

Thank you, sir. That is my shot, and that downtown Burlington location was recycled from the GV70 vs X3 comparo I did earlier this year. 

[rrocket]

.

Will the G90 hold up over time as well as an LS?  Only time will tell, but I wouldn't bet on it.  .

Pretty much how I feel.

I'd definitely drive a G90. No doubt it can do the luxury part.

But since I typically buy used, long term reliability matters. And I'm just not sure it's on equal footing for that long term reliability.

I definitely will cross shop it though when that time comes.

[Jaeger]

Back to the G90 for a moment, if I may...

Hell yes, please.

I did the comparo of the last gen G90 against the current gen Lexus LS last year and came away liking the Lexus interior for its higher quality and greater luxury, but preferred the 'old school' V8 in the Genesis from a driver's standpoint. I was worried that the new G90, having now gone to a V6 as well, would have lost some of its panache the way the LS has, but this new, albeit wildly complex, drivetrain is excellent. The new G90 is a much more engaging car to drive than the current gen Lexus LS and the luxury and finishes are now on par with the Lexus.

I am exactly zero per cent surprised to read this.  Though I imagine that the usual suspects will be triggered.

Will the G90 hold up over time as well as an LS?  Only time will tell, but I wouldn't bet on it.  But for someone looking to keep it for a few years before trading it on the next big baller sedan, it should serve just fine.  And I'll come out and say it, the on-road feel of this thing, especially cruising down the highway feels like any modern S-Class I've driven.  The same solidity and refinement here.  This is a genuinely exceptional machine.  Just don't spec yours with those annoying power door closers.  Uggh. 

North America isn't the only market for these, too. In Korea these must sell 10x the German competitors combined -- at least that was my observation there.

It's almost as if you're saying there's more to this car than just nice wheel design. 

Thank you, sir. That is my shot, and that downtown Burlington location was recycled from the GV70 vs X3 comparo I did earlier this year. 

 

[Jaeger]

Will the G90 hold up over time as well as an LS?  Only time will tell, but I wouldn't bet on it.

Agreed - it likely wouldn't hold up as well as THE established benchmark for long term reliability in a luxury sedan.  Where would your bet fall on whether it would hold up as well over time as the Germans?

[rrocket]

The new G90 is a much more engaging car to drive than the current gen Lexus LS and the luxury and finishes are now on par with the Lexus.

I don't think that's as controversial as it sounds IMO.

I agree that a thoroughly new Genesis is roughly on par with a 5 year old Lexus design.

[revalations]

.

Will the G90 hold up over time as well as an LS?  Only time will tell, but I wouldn't bet on it.  .

Pretty much how I feel.

I'd definitely drive a G90. No doubt it can do the luxury part.

But since I typically buy used, long term reliability matters. And I'm just not sure it's on equal footing for that long term reliability.

I definitely will cross shop it though when that time comes.

It definitely won’t hold up to Lexus standards long term. Genesis is one of the top vehicles my Lexus dealer sees coming in trade. They really suffer on resale. That said, if you want one it’ll be much more reasonable to buy.


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[rrocket]

It definitely won’t hold up to Lexus standards long term.

I'm not even convinced that the LS will hold up to the long term Lexus standard!

Will the TT V6 wear as long as the V8 in previous LS?  I'm not convinced.  I know FOR SURE the V8 powertrain can make it to 500k and beyond.  The TT V6?  Not so much IMO.  I'm satisfied the engine itself could.  But the turbos and other necessary baubles and bits for it? I'm not so sure.

I think the LS500h will be the long term reliability champion in the segment...and would be my preference to buy.

[EV-Light]

It definitely won’t hold up to Lexus standards long term.

I'm not even convinced that the LS will hold up to the long term Lexus standard!

Will the TT V6 wear as long as the V8 in previous LS?  I'm not convinced.  I know FOR SURE the V8 powertrain can make it to 500k and beyond.  The TT V6?  Not so much IMO.  I'm satisfied the engine itself could.  But the turbos and other necessary baubles and bits for it? I'm not so sure.

I think the LS500h will be the long term reliability champion in the segment...and would be my preference to buy.

That rear diff harness will cost you [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23][emoji23] unless Toyota does the right thing and decide to do a proper recall / full redesign of the unit


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[rrocket]

It definitely won’t hold up to Lexus standards long term.

I'm not even convinced that the LS will hold up to the long term Lexus standard!

Will the TT V6 wear as long as the V8 in previous LS?  I'm not convinced.  I know FOR SURE the V8 powertrain can make it to 500k and beyond.  The TT V6?  Not so much IMO.  I'm satisfied the engine itself could.  But the turbos and other necessary baubles and bits for it? I'm not so sure.

I think the LS500h will be the long term reliability champion in the segment...and would be my preference to buy.

That rear diff harness will cost you [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23][emoji23] unless Toyota does the right thing and decide to do a proper recall / full redesign of the unit


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Zero worries.  Non issue on the LS.

[EV-Light]

It definitely won’t hold up to Lexus standards long term.

I'm not even convinced that the LS will hold up to the long term Lexus standard!

Will the TT V6 wear as long as the V8 in previous LS?  I'm not convinced.  I know FOR SURE the V8 powertrain can make it to 500k and beyond.  The TT V6?  Not so much IMO.  I'm satisfied the engine itself could.  But the turbos and other necessary baubles and bits for it? I'm not so sure.

I think the LS500h will be the long term reliability champion in the segment...and would be my preference to buy.

That rear diff harness will cost you [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23][emoji23] unless Toyota does the right thing and decide to do a proper recall / full redesign of the unit


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Zero worries.  Non issue on the LS.

Same system but somehow doesn’t affect it?! The main difference is…there have been what 1 or 2 of these sold a year?! So the volume is not there for the issue to show up….


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[rrocket]

It definitely won’t hold up to Lexus standards long term.

I'm not even convinced that the LS will hold up to the long term Lexus standard!

Will the TT V6 wear as long as the V8 in previous LS?  I'm not convinced.  I know FOR SURE the V8 powertrain can make it to 500k and beyond.  The TT V6?  Not so much IMO.  I'm satisfied the engine itself could.  But the turbos and other necessary baubles and bits for it? I'm not so sure.

I think the LS500h will be the long term reliability champion in the segment...and would be my preference to buy.

That rear diff harness will cost you [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23][emoji23] unless Toyota does the right thing and decide to do a proper recall / full redesign of the unit


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Zero worries.  Non issue on the LS.

Same system but somehow doesn’t affect it?! The main difference is…there have been what 1 or 2 of these sold a year?! So the volume is not there for the issue to show up….


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Different.

Variations of the system in the LS has been used since 2008.

[EV Dan]

That rear diff harness will cost you [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23][emoji23] unless Toyota does the right thing and decide to do a proper recall / full redesign of the unit

Don't know where they are on the proper recall but the new hybrids e.g. Corolla Cross have the connector flipped over to the top of the motor.

[EV-Light]

That rear diff harness will cost you [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23][emoji23] unless Toyota does the right thing and decide to do a proper recall / full redesign of the unit

Don't know where they are on the proper recall but the new hybrids e.g. Corolla Cross have the connector flipped over to the top of the motor.

Yeah…a cablegate engineer did not think this design was a ‘long term’ fix…it would for sure last longer than the existing design - the issue continues, the cable is exposed to all the great winter gunks that corrodes connections over time…

The correct design for the unit is a sealed/waterproof one that can be open for repairs…

Take a look at reviews from Munro, that’s prolly all Toyota engineers need to learn how to implement an all weather design…recalls will be very expensive though and they might never cross that bridge, this issue really just affects place where we have harsh winter and salt is used to improve traction - clearly a requirement not taken into account by the engineers…


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[PoweredSilenceGT]

Even look at the market today.....If you're a driving enthusiast and want a car that's going to satisfy you dynamically, you're more often than not in one of the German brands. If you're less of an enthusiast driver and just want a comfy luxury car, you're buying a Lexus.

Exception to that rule is the multi-car people...I have zero interest in a 'sporty' luxury barge because I have sports/performance cars in the fleet. So I'd rather have something at the other end of the spectrum.

Cadillac still can't get it figured out either....The CTX line skews very sporty, and you're just not going to displace the Germans in that space. They really should go back to building a 'better Lexus' - I think they still have the brand power to make a mark with the right cars.

They struck gold with the Escalade though...

And the Blackwings.

Escalade and the mid-size SUV (SRX, now XT5) keep the company alive. Slade's are popular everywhere, and the XT5s are extremely popular outside of city centers, at least in Ontario. Both good vehicles, and I imagine the profit margin on the Escalades is really rich given that most of the underpinnings are shared with the Chevy and GMC counterparts.

The Blackwings are niche though, they're cool, but not what's needed to pickup volume in on the car side of the equation.

I think there is enough demand that they could probably double or triple output of the Blackwings, but yes it’s niche but also something that will be remembered decades from now.  The CUVs and Slade are what keeps the lights on.  I feel like their CUVs aren’t nearly as competitive as brands like Acura (MDX & RDX), Lexus (UX, RX, NX) or even Genesis.  The Slade is by are their best product, followed by their Blackwings, and then that EV CUV.

No kidding, doesn't hurt that the MDX has the legendary (no pun intended) J35 motor compared to GM's failure prone HF V6.

[Layne]

Will the G90 hold up over time as well as an LS?  Only time will tell, but I wouldn't bet on it.

Agreed - it likely wouldn't hold up as well as THE established benchmark for long term reliability in a luxury sedan.  Where would your bet fall on whether it would hold up as well over time as the Germans?

Indeed.  Hyundai IS the pinnacle of long term reliability.

😂