Topic: Air Canada to Acquire 30 ES-30 Electric Regional Aircraft from Heart Aerospace

[OliverD]

Thinking about this a bit more, there's a lot of pressure to eliminate short air routes, particularly in the EU. At least there they have high speed rail that is generally more convenient than flying depending on the distance being traveled. Taking the train from Madrid to Barcelona was much more pleasant than flying would have been since you have more room, security is easier, and you don't have to travel outside of the city to get to the airport.

Since that doesn't exist in Canada, it makes sense to work towards more sustainable ways of traveling routes like YYZ-YUL which see thousands of passengers a day for what is a relatively short distance.

[Great_Big_Abyss]

It could work, but only if you de-content the security/check-in process. 

Carry-on baggage only, minimal security process, etc.  Make it so that it's 15 min from your car until boarding.  Like a train.

Funny guy.

Have you considered a career in stand-up?   

Lol, my understanding is that air travel was like that - pre 9/11. It'll never be that way again, and frankly, as much as I hate the hassle of going through security and whatnot, I am not sure I'd feel comfortable getting on a plane with 'minimal security' either.

My point was, if it takes 2 hours to travel 200kms by car (okay, I get that traffic in the GTA could extend that to 3 hours, but let's assume for argument's sake that you can travel 200kms in 2 hrs), then if an electric plane with 200kms of range is going to economically work, it needs to get you there in less overall time, which includes travel time to the airport, check-in, boarding, take-off, transit, landing, debarkation, then travel time to your ultimate destination. 

No idea how fast these ES-30's will go, but they appear to have a shape similar to a dash 8, which for the sake of argument, a Dash 8-100 has a cruise speed of 500 km/h.  AT cruising speed, it could cover 200kms in 24 min, but not the entire flight is at cruising speed, so let's increase that time to 30-min to account for the lower take-off and landing speeds.  We'll assume that it operates at smaller airports (like Toronto City Centre), so 5 minutes at each end to taxi to/from the gate, total moving time of 40-min.  Plane capacity is approx. 30 passengers, so let's assume 10 minutes to board and 5 minutes to deplane at the destination.  Now we're at 55 minutes.  55 minutes on a plane vs 2 hours in a car is worth it to some business travellers, BUT the security process would need to be minimal (like, 5-10 minutes) to make it actually worthwhile.  A traveller should be reasonably confident of arriving at the airport 15-20 minutes before their actual flight, and still be able to board the plane and get to their destination. 

If you're required to arrive at the airport 1 - 1.5hrs before your flight as is the current standard, spend 20 minutes going through security, then an hour waiting in a chair until your flight is ready to board, it takes ALL the convenience out of it. 

[quadzilla]

In your example above you didn't account for travel time to/from the airport and parking if need be. If that takes 30 minutes on each end, it still comes out to 2 hours. No time savings, more expensive (usually at least 10x more) than driving, and you have to sit with people that can be annoying. This is why almost everybody drives in Canada.

[Shorlaw]

It also doesn't account for no flexibility by being on a set schedule.  If you book your flights around a meeting that goes till 5 but actually ends early at 3, you'd be back home with your car before the flight even boarded

[Great_Big_Abyss]

It also doesn't account for no flexibility by being on a set schedule.  If you book your flights around a meeting that goes till 5 but actually ends early at 3, you'd be back home with your car before the flight even boarded

The shuttle model with a plane leaving every 30-45 minutes from 6AM to 6PM might work well.  Takes 30-45 minutes to charge a plane, so this could be feasible.  You could fill a route that is 200km long with 4 planes - 2 in the air, and 2 charging/deplaning/boarding at any given time.   

Have it in a special terminal with easy parking/security, etc. 

[OliverD]

I wouldn't get too fixated on the 200 km thing. It gets more range in hybrid mode, and the plan is to increase the range to 300 km a few years after production starts and then 400 km a few years after that.

Much like early electric cars, the use cases for a plane like this are fairly limited but will expand with time.

[tortoise]

Exactly.  For sure the airframe is designed to be retrofitted with better batteries as the tech evolves.

[OliverD]

Interestingly, their initial design was for a 19-passenger plane which several carriers ordered but they've converted those orders to this newer 30-passenger design.

[tortoise]

In your example above you didn't account for travel time to/from the airport and parking if need be. If that takes 30 minutes on each end, it still comes out to 2 hours. No time savings, more expensive (usually at least 10x more) than driving, and you have to sit with people that can be annoying. This is why almost everybody drives in Canada.

Except if you're leaving from the GTA at rush hour.  And cost isn't an issue if the company is paying for the ticket.

[PJungnitsch]

Could imagine this being quite a bit more pleasant than a turboprop rattling away, or is it the propellers that cause all the vibration vs the engine?

[Great_Big_Abyss]

I could see it being handy for regional connector flights.  Let's say you live in Hamilton, and want to travel to St John's NFLD.  You can fly Westjet out of Hamilton Airport, with 3 connections, and a total flight time of 65hrs (LOL!!!)

OR, you could take the little commuter electric plane from Hamilton to Toronto, and connect to the Air Canada flight to St John's.  Security times are less important, as it's a longer trip, plus once you land in Toronto, it's not like you need to go through security AGAIN. 

I guess these planes will eventually replace the Q400's that make up the majority of regional flights. 

[JohnnyMac]

I just think there is a high likelihood of these planes almost always using the on board generator to extend, and if that's the case, not exactly a huge win for the environment.  Also, wouldn't a hydrogen electric plane not be a better design as the turn around would likely be quicker.

The reality is, if you want to save the environment from the pollution from airplanes, maybe just do zoom meetings and avoid travel altogether.  I'd say the vast majority of business meetings can be done remotely.

[dkaz]

If someone in London ON was flying to London UK, if given the opportunity to fly straight out of London connecting in Toronto or drive to Toronto and fly out of there, they will likely go for the first option. Parking in London is probably nicer than parking at Toronto.

Same reason why I would not consider flying to Calgary but I would certainly connect through Calgary. I have to go through security anyway whichever airport I fly out of.

[ktm525]

I wouldn't get too fixated on the 200 km thing. It gets more range in hybrid mode, and the plan is to increase the range to 300 km a few years after production starts and then 400 km a few years after that.

Much like early electric cars, the use cases for a plane like this are fairly limited but will expand with time.

How's the range in January when after sitting in line for takeoff and has to go back and be deiced again and then back in line?

[dkaz]

Another example, Kelowna to Castlegar. 147km by airplane, 307km by car. Although then people will weigh the benefits of having their own car at their destination vs. being able to rent one.

[Guy]

If someone in London ON was flying to London UK, if given the opportunity to fly straight out of London connecting in Toronto or drive to Toronto and fly out of there, they will likely go for the first option. Parking in London is probably nicer than parking at Toronto.

Same reason why I would not consider flying to Calgary but I would certainly connect through Calgary. I have to go through security anyway whichever airport I fly out of.

Agreed, being based in Quebec City, it is much better for me to get a ride to the local airport (15 minutes) and fly out to Montreal to take a connection anywhere in the World. Often there’s not much difference in the ticket price.

If I have business in Montreal, then I will drive there.