Author Topic: 2023 C8 Z06  (Read 22412 times)

Offline Triple Bob

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Re: 2023 C8 Z06
« Reply #80 on: October 29, 2021, 08:14:58 pm »

I also don't know about the "teach you more" part. I think it's more correct to say that less powerful cars keep you out of trouble more. On a more powerful car, you have to learn more about the throttle control, versus on a 2.0 NA engine where you can just mash it and go without worrying about spinning out(okay, don't try that in an S2000).


In the Caterham you could spin the car by shifting down too aggressively. The car had more torque than grip, like a litre bike.

I have to disagree though. Less powerful cars/bikes teach you so much more about momentum and proper cornering/braking. 'Throttle control' is the easiest part.


Choosing a car based on reliability is like choosing a wife based solely because she is punctual. There is more to it than that...

Offline UnknownJinX

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Re: 2023 C8 Z06
« Reply #81 on: October 30, 2021, 03:13:48 pm »



I also don't know about the "teach you more" part. I think it's more correct to say that less powerful cars keep you out of trouble more. On a more powerful car, you have to learn more about the throttle control, versus on a 2.0 NA engine where you can just mash it and go without worrying about spinning out(okay, don't try that in an S2000).


In the Caterham you could spin the car by shifting down too aggressively. The car had more torque than grip, like a litre bike.

I have to disagree though. Less powerful cars/bikes teach you so much more about momentum and proper cornering/braking. 'Throttle control' is the easiest part.

I see a lot of people saying the same thing but I still don't quite see it. There are a few more legitimate reasons I can think of, but even they have their counterpoints:

- Old, less powerful cars are cheaper, so if you put into a wall, it still sucks, but you learn to move on. Less so on a powerful car that costs more, so you might be willing to push the cheaper car a bit harder. On the flip side, though, depending on where your car crashed, an older car has a greater chance to leave you more seriously injured(unless it's fully roll caged or something of the like). I know tracks usually have things to soften the blow, but there are still times where space constraints kick in and you crash into something hard.

- You will push yourself harder in a less powerful car trying to keep up with better cars, but then unless you have something like a GT3 RS, then there is always a faster car on the track for you to push yourself. On the open lapping days, my best lapping times are actually from me trying to keep up with a C7 GS and C8 Z51 on two seperate days. Corvettes are always fun to play with for me.

- Some say a faster car have more power to cover up mistakes, but a mistake is mistake. You still add time to your lap time. Any person who is seriously trying to learn won't compare their own time with someone else with a very different car. You compare to similar cars and that's mostly yourself. For example, I won't try to compare lap times to a Miata except to know if I am doing something very wrong with my Camaro, but the times from, say, an M2C would be something to look at. Especially if you have telemetry, you could review the footage to see exactly where and what you did wrong.

And then there is the elephant in the room: the linework is completely different for a lighter and heavier car. They require different emphasis and strategies. Whereas carrying momentum is the trick with lighter cars, where and how to use the throttle becomes that much more important on a more powerful car. Yes it's easy on paper, but again with telemetrics, you'd be surprised how much you can learn. "Proper cornering" is simply different depending on the car you drive so proper cornering in a Miata isn't directly translatable to proper cornering in a Z06. Braking is just as important regardless of cars, again, mistakes are mistakes. They will impact your time.

Really, I think you learn the best when all the cars are relatively equal on the track, so the strategies and skills required are the same for every car, and it boils down to your skills.

We can argue all day about what you learn more on and it seems like some people would agree with you, but you also have to realize that different people learn in different ways. For some people, learning in a Miata and doing all the momentum carrying is fun, but for some, being passed by a bunch of other cars in straight lines can be discouraging. What good is learning more if you eventually lose interest? That's where a more powerful car could help. It could be a good way for unskilled people to have some dumb fun on the track more forgiveingly, stroke their ego and hopefully even get them interested in tracking (like me). Open tracking days are not even that serious to begin with, anyway.

Offline Triple Bob

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Re: 2023 C8 Z06
« Reply #82 on: October 30, 2021, 05:09:26 pm »



I also don't know about the "teach you more" part. I think it's more correct to say that less powerful cars keep you out of trouble more. On a more powerful car, you have to learn more about the throttle control, versus on a 2.0 NA engine where you can just mash it and go without worrying about spinning out(okay, don't try that in an S2000).


In the Caterham you could spin the car by shifting down too aggressively. The car had more torque than grip, like a litre bike.

I have to disagree though. Less powerful cars/bikes teach you so much more about momentum and proper cornering/braking. 'Throttle control' is the easiest part.

I see a lot of people saying the same thing but I still don't quite see it. There are a few more legitimate reasons I can think of, but even they have their counterpoints:

- Old, less powerful cars are cheaper, so if you put into a wall, it still sucks, but you learn to move on. Less so on a powerful car that costs more, so you might be willing to push the cheaper car a bit harder. On the flip side, though, depending on where your car crashed, an older car has a greater chance to leave you more seriously injured(unless it's fully roll caged or something of the like). I know tracks usually have things to soften the blow, but there are still times where space constraints kick in and you crash into something hard.

- You will push yourself harder in a less powerful car trying to keep up with better cars, but then unless you have something like a GT3 RS, then there is always a faster car on the track for you to push yourself. On the open lapping days, my best lapping times are actually from me trying to keep up with a C7 GS and C8 Z51 on two seperate days. Corvettes are always fun to play with for me.

- Some say a faster car have more power to cover up mistakes, but a mistake is mistake. You still add time to your lap time. Any person who is seriously trying to learn won't compare their own time with someone else with a very different car. You compare to similar cars and that's mostly yourself. For example, I won't try to compare lap times to a Miata except to know if I am doing something very wrong with my Camaro, but the times from, say, an M2C would be something to look at. Especially if you have telemetry, you could review the footage to see exactly where and what you did wrong.

And then there is the elephant in the room: the linework is completely different for a lighter and heavier car. They require different emphasis and strategies. Whereas carrying momentum is the trick with lighter cars, where and how to use the throttle becomes that much more important on a more powerful car. Yes it's easy on paper, but again with telemetrics, you'd be surprised how much you can learn. "Proper cornering" is simply different depending on the car you drive so proper cornering in a Miata isn't directly translatable to proper cornering in a Z06. Braking is just as important regardless of cars, again, mistakes are mistakes. They will impact your time.

Really, I think you learn the best when all the cars are relatively equal on the track, so the strategies and skills required are the same for every car, and it boils down to your skills.

We can argue all day about what you learn more on and it seems like some people would agree with you, but you also have to realize that different people learn in different ways. For some people, learning in a Miata and doing all the momentum carrying is fun, but for some, being passed by a bunch of other cars in straight lines can be discouraging. What good is learning more if you eventually lose interest? That's where a more powerful car could help. It could be a good way for unskilled people to have some dumb fun on the track more forgiveingly, stroke their ego and hopefully even get them interested in tracking (like me). Open tracking days are not even that serious to begin with, anyway.

Let's just agree to disagree. I don't care how fast anyone else is going, I go to a track to learn to drive fast better, i.e. race the track, not other people. I couldn't care less what anyone else is driving as long as I'm having fun and improving.

Personally (and as I've said many times, YMMV) I prefer driving something smaller, lighter, and less powerful. Anything with over 500bhp allows you to have shitty cornering technique, and you can point and squirt all day long and go home feeling like a hero because you overtook some people. That's not the point of a track day for me.

Offline UnknownJinX

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Re: 2023 C8 Z06
« Reply #83 on: October 30, 2021, 06:03:36 pm »
Let's just agree to disagree. I don't care how fast anyone else is going, I go to a track to learn to drive fast better, i.e. race the track, not other people. I couldn't care less what anyone else is driving as long as I'm having fun and improving.

Personally (and as I've said many times, YMMV) I prefer driving something smaller, lighter, and less powerful. Anything with over 500bhp allows you to have shitty cornering technique, and you can point and squirt all day long and go home feeling like a hero because you overtook some people. That's not the point of a track day for me.

Just trying to provide another perspective. For some people, driving a powerful car and getting beaten by a less powerful car is also motivation to git gud. And to be fair, I came from an RX-8. Granted, I didn't do anything serious in it more than Autocross, but I just feel like the driving techniques I focused on in that car didn't apply much in the Camaro. If anything, the lack of torque allowed much more generous throttle inputs, which doesn't end well in a V8.

Also, you have to be something of a Zen monk to absolutely not care about how other cars are doing on a track day. I get that it shouldn't be your focus, but sometimes keeping up with other faster cars is part of the fun.

And again, you can't compare the cornering techniques between a nimble light car and a powerful heavy car. It's only a shitty technique if it ends up with worse time for that given car, or overly relies on the electronics. Yes, you can point and squirt, but you are not fooling anyone who is spectating. I had people point it out to me in the past and I worked to improve it.

If you want to improve yourself, there is always room and reason for it.

So yeah, agree to disagree. To be clear, I am not saying I would get something like a Challenger (bad chassis for tracking) or a new NSX (way too many electronics). If the chassis is good and the electronics aren't too intrusive, weight won't bother me at all as good engineering can counter some of it.

Offline rrocket

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Re: 2023 C8 Z06
« Reply #84 on: October 31, 2021, 01:58:31 am »
I agree with what Bob is saying.
How fast is my 911?  Supras sh*t on on me all the time...in reverse..with blown turbos  :( ...

Offline Jaeger

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Re: 2023 C8 Z06
« Reply #85 on: October 31, 2021, 05:09:27 am »
I agree with what Bob is saying.

Ditto.
Wokeism is nothing more than the recognition and opposition of bigotry in all its forms.  Bigots are predictably triggered.

Offline UnknownJinX

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Re: 2023 C8 Z06
« Reply #86 on: October 31, 2021, 02:25:03 pm »
Eh, if I really want lightweight with not much horsepower, I would opt for something straight up not road legal at all like a Radical, or just screw it, go have fun in go-karting. Especially if we are talking about budgets, go-karting is cheap compared to running anything on the track.

At Area 27, there is a kart track right beside the main track. They even have a program where you can do laps in their Camaro SS 1LE and then do some laps with the karts. Pretty good setup, high horsepower on the big track and then little go karts on the small track.

And screw it, so what if someone just wants to have stupid fun on the track with point and squirt? If they aren't causing trouble, it's fair game. Road tracking isn't like fishing or exercising/strength training in that there is little to no practical payoff if you are just doing it as a hobby. With fishing, you can catch your own meals and snacks, while with exercising, there are health benefits, but with tracking, there is little benefit to your day-to-day scenarios other than maybe emergency maneuvering. Yeah you can get amazing at it but other than bragging rights and respect from fellow car guys, you are not getting any prizes. Now if you build your career around it or you are in competitions then that's a different matter, but you are also not really doing it as a hobby anymore, and in the case of career, you have someone else paying for everything.

At the end of the day, this is a Z06 thread, and trying to prove how the horsepower is unnecessary? Blasphemy, I say!

Offline rrocket

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Re: 2023 C8 Z06
« Reply #87 on: October 31, 2021, 02:34:01 pm »
Sounds like someone had their feelings hurt....

LOL [emoji38]

Offline UnknownJinX

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Re: 2023 C8 Z06
« Reply #88 on: October 31, 2021, 02:43:42 pm »
Sounds like someone had their feelings hurt....

LOL [emoji38]
Well, I already realize I am not that good at tracking, and I spent the summer trying to get better at it, but you gonna ask me to get something less powerful just so I can allegedly learn better? Not gonna happen. It's a hobby. Hobbies are fun when you learn at your own pace and do it the way you are happy with. Once it starts to get all technical, that's when the fun dies.

If you can afford the Z06 and think it's fun, that's what matters. Revving the hearts out of it will be more fun than any 4-banger in the straights. There is no denying that.

I only have feelings hurt because I am slowly evolving into a GM fanboy, LOL.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2021, 02:47:04 pm by UnknownJinX »

Offline rrocket

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Re: 2023 C8 Z06
« Reply #89 on: October 31, 2021, 03:53:32 pm »


  but you gonna ask me to get something less powerful just so I can allegedly learn better?

Nobody is asking you to do :censor:.

You been hanging around with John or something?


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Re: 2023 C8 Z06
« Reply #90 on: October 31, 2021, 04:10:20 pm »


  but you gonna ask me to get something less powerful just so I can allegedly learn better?

Nobody is asking you to do :censor:.

You been hanging around with John or something?
Well you know how it can get with discussions for me. I get too involved.

I was also speaking hypothetically. This can apply to anyone drive anything powerful(you know, like a Z06?) for fun on the track without getting way too technical, not just me.

Oh well, time to chill.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2021, 04:12:35 pm by UnknownJinX »

Offline Triple Bob

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Re: 2023 C8 Z06
« Reply #91 on: November 01, 2021, 02:31:33 pm »
Eh, if I really want lightweight with not much horsepower, I would opt for something straight up not road legal at all like a Radical, or just screw it, go have fun in go-karting. Especially if we are talking about budgets, go-karting is cheap compared to running anything on the track.

At Area 27, there is a kart track right beside the main track. They even have a program where you can do laps in their Camaro SS 1LE and then do some laps with the karts. Pretty good setup, high horsepower on the big track and then little go karts on the small track.

And screw it, so what if someone just wants to have stupid fun on the track with point and squirt? If they aren't causing trouble, it's fair game. Road tracking isn't like fishing or exercising/strength training in that there is little to no practical payoff if you are just doing it as a hobby. With fishing, you can catch your own meals and snacks, while with exercising, there are health benefits, but with tracking, there is little benefit to your day-to-day scenarios other than maybe emergency maneuvering. Yeah you can get amazing at it but other than bragging rights and respect from fellow car guys, you are not getting any prizes. Now if you build your career around it or you are in competitions then that's a different matter, but you are also not really doing it as a hobby anymore, and in the case of career, you have someone else paying for everything.

At the end of the day, this is a Z06 thread, and trying to prove how the horsepower is unnecessary? Blasphemy, I say!

No one is asking you to do anything, we're not taking away your freedom or anything...

Anyway, you're completely missing the point, again. I don't care about bragging rights. And you don't actually have them either, because NO ONE IS RACING. Track days are not racing. If all you want to do is take your Z06/1LE to the track so you can pretend to overtake people in 'similar cars' then have at it. But you're not fooling anyone.

Me. I love the fact that they've made a Z06, but for me it's wasted on the street, and I'd get something different for the track. YMMV.

Offline UnknownJinX

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Re: 2023 C8 Z06
« Reply #92 on: November 03, 2021, 04:09:56 pm »
No one is asking you to do anything, we're not taking away your freedom or anything...

Anyway, you're completely missing the point, again. I don't care about bragging rights. And you don't actually have them either, because NO ONE IS RACING. Track days are not racing. If all you want to do is take your Z06/1LE to the track so you can pretend to overtake people in 'similar cars' then have at it. But you're not fooling anyone.

Me. I love the fact that they've made a Z06, but for me it's wasted on the street, and I'd get something different for the track. YMMV.

I get that you are not asking me to do anything, sigh. Like I said, I am speaking hypothetically for all the people who started their tracking experience in a more powerful car.

I want to argue back but A. I said I would chill and B. they would more or less be the points I have said before, so if you don't get/agree to them, whatever. My intention is to challenge the conventional wisdom that "you learn better in a slower car/bike on a track." Still don't agree to it. And I came from a lighter, less powerful car myself. That has just been my experience.

Lots of cars are overkill nowadays. Hellcat has ridiculous power, can't track for crap, but if you say you don't like the supercharger then you should go and wonder where your life went wrong. The Z06 is overkill, but for some people, just the engine sound and the fact that it revs that high make the deal. After all, people who track are still in the minority.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2021, 04:18:24 pm by UnknownJinX »

Offline Triple Bob

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Re: 2023 C8 Z06
« Reply #93 on: November 03, 2021, 04:40:40 pm »
It's OK for us to disagree.

 :cheers:

Offline UnknownJinX

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Re: 2023 C8 Z06
« Reply #94 on: November 03, 2021, 06:48:48 pm »
It's OK for us to disagree.

 :cheers:
Agreed to agree to disagree.

LOL.

Offline Great_Big_Abyss

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Re: 2023 C8 Z06
« Reply #95 on: November 03, 2021, 07:09:11 pm »

I can't believe some of you are on the fence about an 8600rpm, DOHC, flat-plane crank, NA V8 with a ridiculous specific output. 

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Re: 2023 C8 Z06
« Reply #96 on: November 03, 2021, 07:17:42 pm »

I can't believe some of you are on the fence about an 8600rpm, DOHC, flat-plane crank, NA V8 with a ridiculous specific output.
Funnily enough, I heard some people on CorvetteForum are like that.

Some purists are really, really used to pushrod V8s and superchargers that they are against the LT6 because the perceived lack of low-end torque. I think that's a bit silly, though. With MR setup and the short and aggressive gear ratios, I don't think the lack of low-end torque would be a huge issue. I would of course love to see the torque curve.

But then again, the said purists are also pissed off about the lack of round taillights since C7 and the fact that C8 is MR.

Offline Triple Bob

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Re: 2023 C8 Z06
« Reply #97 on: November 03, 2021, 07:30:48 pm »

I can't believe some of you are on the fence about an 8600rpm, DOHC, flat-plane crank, NA V8 with a ridiculous specific output.

Is anyone? If it sounds anything like the GT350 it will be epic.

LOL, I could listen to this all day. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOm8S_rE7rY
« Last Edit: November 03, 2021, 07:32:57 pm by Triple Bob »

Offline rrocket

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Re: 2023 C8 Z06
« Reply #98 on: November 03, 2021, 07:53:25 pm »

I can't believe some of you are on the fence about an 8600rpm, DOHC, flat-plane crank, NA V8 with a ridiculous specific output.

Is anyone? If it sounds anything like the GT350 it will be epic.

LOL, I could listen to this all day. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOm8S_rE7rY

It's going to sound more like a Ferrari IMO....