Topic: Motorcycle Engine Design

[Triple Bob]

Based on Ron's comment in the other thread. What's your favourite motorcycle engine design? For me, in order of preference (some imagined) it would be:

Ridden:
Triple
V Twin
Single
Inline 4

Not Ridden:
Inline 6
V4
Boxer Twin
Parallel Twin
Flat 6
Flat 4

It's not just about sound, it's the way the engine revs and vibrates that gives it character. That's why I've never really gotten on with inline 4's. To me they spin up and down way too smoothly, like a sewing machine, robbing them of character. Twins can sometimes seem a bit agricultural. That's why I like triples so much, the perfect blend of revs, torque, and character.

[kings10]

Ridden:
V4 - the cadence, "revability", slim between the knees feel and balanced power delivery combined with the whine from the gear driven cam drive (VFR) makes this my favourite engine design.
Inline 4
Parallel twin
Boxer twin
V-twin (cruiser)
Single

Would love to try a triple. Maybe a sporty v-twin.

[Jaeger]

Based on Ron's comment in the other thread. What's your favourite motorcycle engine design? For me, in order of preference (some imagined) it would be:

Ridden:
Triple
V Twin
Single
Inline 4

Not Ridden:
Inline 6
V4
Boxer Twin
Parallel Twin
Flat 6
Flat 4

It's not just about sound, it's the way the engine revs and vibrates that gives it character. That's why I've never really gotten on with inline 4's. To me they spin up and down way too smoothly, like a sewing machine, robbing them of character. Twins can sometimes seem a bit agricultural. That's why I like triples so much, the perfect blend of revs, torque, and character.

That points to the subjectivity of it all. The smoothness of an I4 really appeals to me versus the thumpy vibeyness of a single. At least in theory.

[ktm525]

2 stroke > 4 stroke. The feeling of a high strung 2 stroke coming onto the pipe just can't be replicated. Grin factor large.

Honda CR80 > Honda CR250 single  > KTM 300 single > CR 500

Hmm notice a pattern here? Small displacement to large.

Then the 2 stroke parallel twin of the RD350

Then the otto cycle engines lol.

inline 4 (GS 1150 EF)(smooth power like locomotive)
v twin (VFR 750). Possibly my favourite 4cyl
boxer twin (BMW). Would like more seat time
tons of thumpers. Good power but they do vibe.

[dkaz]

Ridden
Triple (so fun)
Single Four Stroke (easy to ride)
Parallel Twin (it's so hit and miss)
V-Twin (big Harley, kinda cool, but not for me)
Single Two Stroke (my only experience is 49cc scooters thus the low rating)

[blur911]

I don't really like I-4s, too buzzy, but damn, do they work well and pull hard.
V-twins can be hit and miss, some are agricultural, some are torque monsters, but they are nice and narrow.
V-four, like a torquey twin, on steroids, VTEC for the win
Singles, well, yeah, off-roading and keeping it light and simple, it's the way to go. 
Twins, haven't ridden many,  last one was a 2-stroke, so I'm outdated.
Boxer twin, great engine, character, decent power, balanced, liked how it felt
Flat-6, if you want a power cruiser/tourer, it doesn't get any better, basically a Porsche 911 engine feel on a bike.
Triples, flat-four,  don't think I've ever tried

[DriverJeff]

Based on Ron's comment in the other thread. What's your favourite motorcycle engine design? For me, in order of preference (some imagined) it would be:

Ridden:
Triple
V Twin
Single
Inline 4

Not Ridden:
Inline 6
V4
Boxer Twin
Parallel Twin
Flat 6
Flat 4

It's not just about sound, it's the way the engine revs and vibrates that gives it character. That's why I've never really gotten on with inline 4's. To me they spin up and down way too smoothly, like a sewing machine, robbing them of character. Twins can sometimes seem a bit agricultural. That's why I like triples so much, the perfect blend of revs, torque, and character.

That points to the subjectivity of it all. The smoothness of an I4 really appeals to me versus the thumpy vibeyness of a single. At least in theory.

I get where you'er coming from... but it does vary wildly too.  Some I4s have a high frequency buzz to them that can make you tingle at highways speeds (and not in a good way).  Others -- like the Kawi I4s I've ridden -- are amazingly smooth, yet still with plenty of character. 

Ridden.  My order of general preference:

Triple (smooth, yet torquey, yet free-revving -- best of all worlds)
V4 (Aprilia V4 with pipes and chip done was incredibly powerful and one of the best-sounding machines I've ever heard -- including race cars)
I4 -- if done right, can be wonderful
H-2 --  Blipping the throttle on a BMW Boxer at a stoplight is such fun as the bike rocks laterally under you.  Lots of torque, but kinda agricultural
V-2 -- lots of torque.  Agricultural-sounding and gruff.
I2 -- generally the most bland, but I like the feel and sound of my Bonneville.
Single -- can be lumpy -- but can have a lot of character. 

And of course the different characters suit different bike types, too.  My brain is programmed to expect higher revving, multi-cylinders with sporty bikes.  Big Twins seem to go with cruisers. 

[ktm525]

I guess I like character over smoothness and an engine where you know exactly where the revs are without a tach.

[PJungnitsch]

I really liked my V-twins, both had nice V-twin engine thump down low combined with a willingness to rev to their redlines of 10,000. Very different than Harley V-twins which are happiest maxing out at half that, from what I understand

The 2 strokes I've ridden have all been sleds and that high rpm pull is something else, but idling around is not their strength

My 4 stroke singles have been ok, but nothing really to write home about in comparison. Vibey, utilitarian

Tried a Zero electric motorcycle once, totally different of course. Prefer it to a single. Had to be careful when walking it around as was easy to turn the grip by mistake with no engine sound

[dkaz]

I really liked my V-twins, both had nice V-twin engine thump down low combined with a willingness to rev to their redlines of 10,000. Very different than Harley V-twins which are happiest maxing out at half that, from what I understand

The 2 strokes I've ridden have all been sleds and that high rpm pull is something else, but idling around is not their strength

My 4 stroke singles have been ok, but nothing really to write home about in comparison. Vibey, utilitarian

Tried a Zero electric motorcycle once, totally different of course. Prefer it to a single. Had to be careful when walking it around as was easy to turn the grip by mistake with no engine sound

Had that happen with an electric bicycle. Yikes.

[Jaeger]

I guess I like character over smoothness and an engine where you know exactly where the revs are without a tach.

I dispute the notion that smooth engines "don't have character". They just have a different character. A fart-canned turbo 4 pot Civic that crackles and pops and blats and barks has one kind of character. A silky smooth inline 6 also has character.  Just a different kind.

A Harley that booms and vibrates enough to shake my car windows from the next lane is not the type of character that really appeals to me.

[rrocket]

As with many motorcycle-related things, for me it's not that simple and "it depends". It depends on the bike, what it will be used for, etc  So I think my answer would be far more windbag than what Bob is after.

But I will touch on my parallel twin comment from the other thread.

There's nothing wrong with parallel twins. They work well and have some advantages (depending on their application). But some of them sound dull, which gives them less character.

For example, the Z650 and MT-07 both have similar sized parallel twins. Both make similar power. Both work very well in their application.

Character? The Z650 is a 180 degree firing order. The MT-07 has a 270 degree firing order. 180 in a parallel twin is "meh"...it sounds uninspiring and dull IMO. Whereas the 270 degree firing order is the same firing order as many V-twins (Bob's RC51). So 270 degree parallel twins have a great V-Twin-ish sound and character. And I prefer that. Much prefer that.

Oh..and as far as I4s go? The crossplane crank I4 in the Yamaha R1 is the most spectacular iteration of a large bore I4. It has the revs, power, torque and a spectacular almost V4 sound. As good as it gets and would take over any Triple.

Yet...an 20,000 RPM 250cc I4 is overflowing with character too!

Like I said..there so much "it depends" for me...

[Triple Bob]

As with many motorcycle-related things, for me it's not that simple and "it depends". It depends on the bike, what it will be used for, etc  So I think my answer would be far more windbag than what Bob is after.

But I will touch on my parallel twin comment from the other thread.

There's nothing wrong with parallel twins. They work well and have some advantages (depending on their application). But some of them sound dull, which gives them less character.

For example, the Z650 and MT-07 both have similar sized parallel twins. Both make similar power. Both work very well in their application.

Character? The Z650 is a 180 degree firing order. The MT-07 has a 270 degree firing order. 180 in a parallel twin is "meh"...it sounds uninspiring and dull IMO. Whereas the 270 degree firing order is the same firing order as many V-twins (Bob's RC51). So 270 degree parallel twins have a great V-Twin-ish sound and character. And I prefer that. Much prefer that.

Oh..and as far as I4s go? The crossplane crank I4 in the Yamaha R1 is the most spectacular iteration of a large bore I4. It has the revs, power, torque and a spectacular almost V4 sound. As good as it gets and would take over any Triple.

Yet...an 20,000 RPM 250cc I4 is overflowing with character too!

Like I said..there so much "it depends" for me...

I'd love to try an R1, I've heard so much about the engine. But generally I really don't get on with I4's.

I agree with ktm on the character over smoothness. The FZ-09 had just the right amount of vibration that it FELT like it was really powerful. A powerful but super smooth I4 just doesn't do it for me. As I said though, I'd love to try the R1 to see if that would convince me.

[rrocket]

As with many motorcycle-related things, for me it's not that simple and "it depends". It depends on the bike, what it will be used for, etc  So I think my answer would be far more windbag than what Bob is after.

But I will touch on my parallel twin comment from the other thread.

There's nothing wrong with parallel twins. They work well and have some advantages (depending on their application). But some of them sound dull, which gives them less character.

For example, the Z650 and MT-07 both have similar sized parallel twins. Both make similar power. Both work very well in their application.

Character? The Z650 is a 180 degree firing order. The MT-07 has a 270 degree firing order. 180 in a parallel twin is "meh"...it sounds uninspiring and dull IMO. Whereas the 270 degree firing order is the same firing order as many V-twins (Bob's RC51). So 270 degree parallel twins have a great V-Twin-ish sound and character. And I prefer that. Much prefer that.

Oh..and as far as I4s go? The crossplane crank I4 in the Yamaha R1 is the most spectacular iteration of a large bore I4. It has the revs, power, torque and a spectacular almost V4 sound. As good as it gets and would take over any Triple.

Yet...an 20,000 RPM 250cc I4 is overflowing with character too!

Like I said..there so much "it depends" for me...

I'd love to try an R1, I've heard so much about the engine. But generally I really don't get on with I4's.

I agree with ktm on the character over smoothness. The FZ-09 had just the right amount of vibration that it FELT like it was really powerful. A powerful but super smooth I4 just doesn't do it for me. As I said though, I'd love to try the R1 to see if that would convince me.

I think again, for me, it depends on the bike and what I'm doing.

For example, a large bore GT bike being used as a fast touring rig (Busa, ZX-14R) that smooooth power is perfect. Of all the ICE vehicles I've driven, a Busa/ZX14 comes closest to the power delivery of an hot EV powerplant. Almost any speed, the power and delivery is stupefying!

Which brings me to my next question. If you don't get along with I4s because of their smoothness and lack of perceived "character", I can't for the life of me understand why you'd have any interest whatsoever in an EV motorcycle....ever.  I've only ridden one and it was the most soul crushing, dissatisfying 2 wheel ride I've ever had.

Surely if an I4 puts you to sleep, and EV bike would make you comatose.

[ltruong]

Well i haven't driven all engine types but ive always been a sucker for low end  instant torque. I know people like 2 stroke dirt bikes and bikers swear by them but ive never really liked them and driven lots of them.

-single big bore
-v twin


Ive only driven couple 4 inline (r6 r1, cbr1000) but every time I feel I can't get to the fun part on regular roads.

Im interested in finding out the rescent triple amd twins.

Scariest bike ive driven.    Old school late 80s ATK 406 2 stroke.  Most fun bike ive driven, ktm 505 4 stroke. 

[PJungnitsch]

Ive only driven couple 4 inline (r6 r1, cbr1000) but every time I feel I can't get to the fun part on regular roads.

When I was in Medicine Hat we had a guy in the office new to motorcycles, and he got himself a 600 crotch rocket inline 4 as his first bike

'This is so technically advanced, look at all the specs, blah, blah blah'

Technically he was right, but practically he found his machine just wasn't fun either in town going slow all crouched up, or on the highway as there is no corners to speak of in that area and to get it to speeds where it shone he was risking a huge ticket

So he sold it after a year

There's a reason why Harleys (and now Indians) and Gold Wings are so popular

[rrocket]

Well i haven't driven all engine types but ive always been a sucker for low end  instant torque. I know people like 2 stroke dirt bikes and bikers swear by them but ive never really liked them and driven lots of them.

-single big bore
-v twin


Ive only driven couple 4 inline (r6 r1, cbr1000) but every time I feel I can't get to the fun part on regular roads.

Im interested in finding out the rescent triple amd twins.

Scariest bike ive driven.    Old school late 80s ATK 406 2 stroke.  Most fun bike ive driven, ktm 505 4 stroke.

ATK went all the way up to 700cc 2 stroke singles!!

I tried to get one for supermoto to no avail.

[ltruong]

Well i haven't driven all engine types but ive always been a sucker for low end  instant torque. I know people like 2 stroke dirt bikes and bikers swear by them but ive never really liked them and driven lots of them.

-single big bore
-v twin


Ive only driven couple 4 inline (r6 r1, cbr1000) but every time I feel I can't get to the fun part on regular roads.

Im interested in finding out the rescent triple amd twins.

Scariest bike ive driven.    Old school late 80s ATK 406 2 stroke.  Most fun bike ive driven, ktm 505 4 stroke.

ATK went all the way up to 700cc 2 stroke singles!!

I tried to get one for supermoto to no avail.

Yes. The ATK intimidator.. aka. Widow maker.  My old roommate was trying to buy one but bought the ktm 505 instead, he also own the atk406 and a CR 500.  Those bikes are for suicidal people lol

Ive only driven couple 4 inline (r6 r1, cbr1000) but every time I feel I can't get to the fun part on regular roads.

When I was in Medicine Hat we had a guy in the office new to motorcycles, and he got himself a 600 crotch rocket inline 4 as his first bike

'This is so technically advanced, look at all the specs, blah, blah blah'

Technically he was right, but practically he found his machine just wasn't fun either in town going slow all crouched up, or on the highway as there is no corners to speak of in that area and to get it to speeds where it shone he was risking a huge ticket

So he sold it after a year

There's a reason why Harleys (and now Indians) and Gold Wings are so popular

Yeah thats what i find too. Weird. Steerimg metric in the city.

[rrocket]

Yes. The ATK intimidator.. aka. Widow maker.  My old roommate was trying to buy one but bought the ktm 505 instead, he also own the atk406 and a CR 500.  Those bikes are for suicidal people lol

 Everyone thought the KX and CR500s were bad-ass. Then KTM shows up with their 550cc monster.

After I learned how to properly ride these big bore 2 strokes, I found them easier to ride than the smaller bikes in some circumstances. No need to tap dance on the shifter...just let the torque do the work for you. Was definitely a rhythm bike for me.


One bike I truly, truly wish I still had was my 1991 TZ250B. 250, 2 stroke, V twin. Track only, 220lbs and fully tuned nearly 90hp. As close to real 2 wheeled MotoGP equipment that could be purchased.

Much like my Supra, I wish I still had it just to let everyone I know experience it.

[dkaz]

Ive only driven couple 4 inline (r6 r1, cbr1000) but every time I feel I can't get to the fun part on regular roads.

When I was in Medicine Hat we had a guy in the office new to motorcycles, and he got himself a 600 crotch rocket inline 4 as his first bike

'This is so technically advanced, look at all the specs, blah, blah blah'

Technically he was right, but practically he found his machine just wasn't fun either in town going slow all crouched up, or on the highway as there is no corners to speak of in that area and to get it to speeds where it shone he was risking a huge ticket

So he sold it after a year

There's a reason why Harleys (and now Indians) and Gold Wings are so popular

There's always Castrol and Stratotech.