Topic: 2019 Toyota RAV4 Hybrid Starts $2,700 Lower

[Great_Big_Abyss]

Customers weren't interested in hybrids because GM didn't do hybrids right.

They had the Volt, a hybrid compact sedan in a market where sedans are dying.  And while the technology was quite good and well done, it was expensive.

And they had the Yukon hybrid, which was a mild hybrid that got practically no fuel economy benefit over the non-hybrid Yukon, also a very expensive option.  And the large SUV market isn't huge either.

So ya, a whole two models in uncompetitive segments, but apparently consumers don't want hybrids.

Meanwhile, Toyota offers hybrids in their most popular segments, like hatchbacks (Prius), compact CUV's (RAV4 and RX450h), and midsize CUV's (Highlander).  And guess what, they sell.  Now that they are reasonably priced, they'll probably outsell their non-hybrid xounterparts.

But, what else would you expect from GM?  They have a long history of screwing this sort of stuff up.

My problem with the first Bolt was the range was short (which is fine, so is the Prius).  But once the battery was drained the car got only so-so MPG.  And it required premium IIRC.

Volt, or Bolt?  I believe the Bolt was EV only.

[EV-Light]

Toyota seem embrace hybrid and PHEV all over the place.

GM, not much.
http://gmauthority.com/blog/2019/08/gm-says-it-already-offered-hybrids-evs-are-long-term-asnwer/
http://gmauthority.com/blog/2019/11/gm-ceo-mary-barra-says-customers-arent-interested-in-hybrids/

I like Ford’s approach the most - EVs, Hybrids and PHEV, people get to choose whatever they want.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[rrocket]

Customers weren't interested in hybrids because GM didn't do hybrids right.

They had the Volt, a hybrid compact sedan in a market where sedans are dying.  And while the technology was quite good and well done, it was expensive.

And they had the Yukon hybrid, which was a mild hybrid that got practically no fuel economy benefit over the non-hybrid Yukon, also a very expensive option.  And the large SUV market isn't huge either.

So ya, a whole two models in uncompetitive segments, but apparently consumers don't want hybrids.

Meanwhile, Toyota offers hybrids in their most popular segments, like hatchbacks (Prius), compact CUV's (RAV4 and RX450h), and midsize CUV's (Highlander).  And guess what, they sell.  Now that they are reasonably priced, they'll probably outsell their non-hybrid xounterparts.

But, what else would you expect from GM?  They have a long history of screwing this sort of stuff up.

My problem with the first Bolt was the range was short (which is fine, so is the Prius).  But once the battery was drained the car got only so-so MPG.  And it required premium IIRC.

Volt, or Bolt?  I believe the Bolt was EV only.

VOLT.

whoops..

[Great_Big_Abyss]

Anyway, battery tech isn't cheap enough for mainstream use yet.  And charging networks are too spotty, and take too long.  Tesla has the right idea with Superchargers, but again, Tesla's aren't cheap.  I priced one out today, staying as cheap as possible, and it was $56k. 

I really think that the near future is in PHEV, where you have enough EV range for 90% of the driving you do, and a gas engine for the rest. 

Mainstream EV's will get here, but we are a ways away.

[rrocket]

Anyway, battery tech isn't cheap enough for mainstream use yet.  And charging networks are too spotty, and take too long.  Tesla has the right idea with Superchargers, but again, Tesla's aren't cheap.  I priced one out today, staying as cheap as possible, and it was $56k. 

I really think that the near future is in PHEV, where you have enough EV range for 90% of the driving you do, and a has engine for the rest. 

Mainstream EV's will get here, but we are a ways away.

Yep....I had been considering a used Prius Prime for 2nd vehicle duty.  ~60km range and can charge in a short enough of time on a regular plug (while I'm at work say).

[ltruong]

Anyway, battery tech isn't cheap enough for mainstream use yet.  And charging networks are too spotty, and take too long.  Tesla has the right idea with Superchargers, but again, Tesla's aren't cheap.  I priced one out today, staying as cheap as possible, and it was $56k. 

I really think that the near future is in PHEV, where you have enough EV range for 90% of the driving you do, and a has engine for the rest. 

Mainstream EV's will get here, but we are a ways away.

Yep....I had been considering a used Prius Prime for 2nd vehicle duty.  ~60km range and can charge in a short enough of time on a regular plug (while I'm at work say).

I wonder if the prime AWD is coming out soon

[EV-Light]

Anyway, battery tech isn't cheap enough for mainstream use yet.  And charging networks are too spotty, and take too long.  Tesla has the right idea with Superchargers, but again, Tesla's aren't cheap.  I priced one out today, staying as cheap as possible, and it was $56k. 

I really think that the near future is in PHEV, where you have enough EV range for 90% of the driving you do, and a gas engine for the rest. 

Mainstream EV's will get here, but we are a ways away.

Yeah I am with you...we are decades away from broad acceptance for full EV.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[EV Dan]

^^^  for the sake of the Earth I hope not 

[rrocket]

^^^  for the sake of the Earth I hope not 

Won't make a difference in your lifetime anyways.

[EV-Light]

^^^  for the sake of the Earth I hope not 

EVs won’t save earth...

We should instead create legislation to create a semi digital workforce for jobs that can accommodate that - it would immediately fix most issues cities are battling - traffic, lack of parking, commutes, maintain public transportation....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[CSH]

The only issue i have with PHEV or Hybrid's in general is that there are more parts so inherently more complicated and possibly more issues as they get older.  Service related costs could easily wipge out $ saved by using less gas.
So if i were to ever get a PHEV/Hybrid it it hard to buy anything else other than a Toyota (Reliability and cost difference between Hybrid and gas only versions being the biggest factors).

[PJungnitsch]

I'm a little wary of the switch to lithium batteries. Sure they are more powerful and lighter than nickel hydride, but whereas the old nickel batteries will last almost forever if cared for, lithium degrades simply due to age, like built in rust

https://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/gadgets/how-to/a7432/why-your-gadgets-batteries-degrade-over-time-6705747/

Sort of like those Italian cars from the 70's built from recycled steel that started to rust at the dealership

[Ex-airbalancer]

The only issue i have with PHEV or Hybrid's in general is that there are more parts so inherently more complicated and possibly more issues as they get older.  Service related costs could easily wipge out $ saved by using less gas.
So if i were to ever get a PHEV/Hybrid it it hard to buy anything else other than a Toyota (Reliability and cost difference between Hybrid and gas only versions being the biggest factors).

We had a Prius for 8 years , 140,000 km there was not extra cost to maintenance for the hybrid system , my daughter has had the car for the last 2.5 years , not problems with hybrid system


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Great_Big_Abyss]

The only issue i have with PHEV or Hybrid's in general is that there are more parts so inherently more complicated and possibly more issues as they get older.  Service related costs could easily wipge out $ saved by using less gas.
So if i were to ever get a PHEV/Hybrid it it hard to buy anything else other than a Toyota (Reliability and cost difference between Hybrid and gas only versions being the biggest factors).

We had a Prius for 8 years , 140,000 km there was not extra cost to maintenance for the hybrid system , my daughter has had the car for the last 2.5 years , not problems with hybrid system


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I think if anything the batteries will wear out, necessitating their replacement.  But it's not that expensive - a couple of grand, and possibly only every 12-15 years. 

All the other parts of the car are solid.

[CSH]

The only issue i have with PHEV or Hybrid's in general is that there are more parts so inherently more complicated and possibly more issues as they get older.  Service related costs could easily wipge out $ saved by using less gas.
So if i were to ever get a PHEV/Hybrid it it hard to buy anything else other than a Toyota (Reliability and cost difference between Hybrid and gas only versions being the biggest factors).

We had a Prius for 8 years , 140,000 km there was not extra cost to maintenance for the hybrid system , my daughter has had the car for the last 2.5 years , not problems with hybrid system


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thats why Toyota.. even from a service perspective, years ago i posted something about a accord hybrid and how it gets better l/100km than Camry Hybrid and someone chimed in that there is this particular Solenoid valve in a hybrid system that when needs replacement is easily $1000+ in labour on the accord but very easy to do on Camry.. I cannot seem to find that post..

[EV Dan]

The only issue i have with PHEV or Hybrid's in general is that there are more parts so inherently more complicated and possibly more issues as they get older.  Service related costs could easily wipge out $ saved by using less gas.
So if i were to ever get a PHEV/Hybrid it it hard to buy anything else other than a Toyota (Reliability and cost difference between Hybrid and gas only versions being the biggest factors).

We had a Prius for 8 years , 140,000 km there was not extra cost to maintenance for the hybrid system , my daughter has had the car for the last 2.5 years , not problems with hybrid system


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thats why Toyota.. even from a service perspective, years ago i posted something about a accord hybrid and how it gets better l/100km than Camry Hybrid and someone chimed in that there is this particular Solenoid valve in a hybrid system that when needs replacement is easily $1000+ in labour on the accord but very easy to do on Camry.. I cannot seem to find that post..

All modern cars are extremely complex. I think the key here is using top quality components and better engineering as opposed to just fewer parts, as logic would suggest. Toyota hybrids now come with better than ever warranty:
 https://www.toyota.ca/toyota/en/about/news/toyota-extends-battery-warranty-for-model-year-2020-hybrid-electric-vehicles

[johngenx]

Yeah, I'm too old to mess around with fiddly cars now.

[me_2]

Toyota seem embrace hybrid and PHEV all over the place.

GM, not much.
http://gmauthority.com/blog/2019/08/gm-says-it-already-offered-hybrids-evs-are-long-term-asnwer/
http://gmauthority.com/blog/2019/11/gm-ceo-mary-barra-says-customers-arent-interested-in-hybrids/

I like Ford’s approach the most - EVs, Hybrids and PHEV, people get to choose whatever they want.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hyundai/Kia do have same various offer / different cocktail flavour

[me_2]

Customers weren't interested in hybrids because GM didn't do hybrids right.

They had the Volt, a hybrid compact sedan in a market where sedans are dying.  And while the technology was quite good and well done, it was expensive.

And they had the Yukon hybrid, which was a mild hybrid that got practically no fuel economy benefit over the non-hybrid Yukon, also a very expensive option.  And the large SUV market isn't huge either.

So ya, a whole two models in uncompetitive segments, but apparently consumers don't want hybrids.

Meanwhile, Toyota offers hybrids in their most popular segments, like hatchbacks (Prius), compact CUV's (RAV4 and RX450h), and midsize CUV's (Highlander).  And guess what, they sell.  Now that they are reasonably priced, they'll probably outsell their non-hybrid xounterparts.

But, what else would you expect from GM?  They have a long history of screwing this sort of stuff up.

My problem with the first Bolt was the range was short (which is fine, so is the Prius).  But once the battery was drained the car got only so-so MPG.  And it required premium IIRC.

So it wasn't a great EV...nor a good hybrid.

Volt first generation had nominal EV range of 60/65 km, still more than actual Prius Prime with its 40 e-kms but yes, once the main traction battery is depleted, the Prime is more efficient as an hybrid when compared either to the Volt 1st or 2nd gen. My 1st gen Volt wasn't that bad in range extender mode (hybrid once battery depleted), averaging summer 5.5-6.0, winter 6.5-7.0 L /100 km using premium gas for 10% of my total kms (27k kms/year) which means, 90% were EV kms. 

[EV Dan]

Yeah, I'm too old to mess around with fiddly cars now.

Would buying a boat help?