Author Topic: Test Drive: 2019 Toyota 86 GT Manual  (Read 20270 times)

Offline rrocket

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Re: Test Drive: 2019 Toyota 86 GT Manual
« Reply #60 on: January 29, 2019, 07:16:21 pm »

What gear were they in.  Even my Golf R with a larger turbo has none of this 3 second lag.  Even at 2000 rpm.

Come on, man!  You should know the answer to this...I thought you knew about dynos??   :stick:

 ;D

Seriously...I'm not kidding.  There is a correct answer to this.

Stew on it a bit and send me a PM if you don't know the answer.

Christ!!!  THE ANSWER IS 4TH GEAR!!!!

Well done!

Why is the answer 4th gear, class?   ;D
gear ratio.

Excellent....but what about the gear ratio?   ;D
How fast is my 911?  Supras sh*t on on me all the time...in reverse..with blown turbos  :( ...

Offline Great_Big_Abyss

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Re: Test Drive: 2019 Toyota 86 GT Manual
« Reply #61 on: January 29, 2019, 07:16:25 pm »
Why would you dyno a CVT?

I think he means manufacturers...for the purpose of establishing HP/TQ for printed materials.

Those numbers are never wheel HP, though, always net crank horsepower.  So, again, who cares.

Anyway, I was looking at it more from a tuner point of view, and no tuner would ever dyno a CVT.

Offline rrocket

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Re: Test Drive: 2019 Toyota 86 GT Manual
« Reply #62 on: January 29, 2019, 07:18:16 pm »
Why would you dyno a CVT?

I think he means manufacturers...for the purpose of establishing HP/TQ for printed materials.

Those numbers are never wheel HP, though, always net crank horsepower.  So, again, who cares.

Anyway, I was looking at it more from a tuner point of view, and no tuner would ever dyno a CVT.

Tuners are indeed dynoing the Civic CVTs.....

Offline Great_Big_Abyss

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Re: Test Drive: 2019 Toyota 86 GT Manual
« Reply #63 on: January 29, 2019, 07:20:48 pm »
Why would you dyno a CVT?

I think he means manufacturers...for the purpose of establishing HP/TQ for printed materials.

Those numbers are never wheel HP, though, always net crank horsepower.  So, again, who cares.

Anyway, I was looking at it more from a tuner point of view, and no tuner would ever dyno a CVT.

Tuners are indeed dynoing the Civic CVTs.....

Seriously?  Huh.  Why?  You can get that engine with a stick...

Offline rrocket

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Re: Test Drive: 2019 Toyota 86 GT Manual
« Reply #64 on: January 29, 2019, 07:29:05 pm »


Seriously?  Huh.  Why?  You can get that engine with a stick...

A tuned turbo can match very, very well with a CVT.  CVT is always (theoretically) at X RPM.....

Also..some people can't drive stick.

Offline johngenx

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Re: Test Drive: 2019 Toyota 86 GT Manual
« Reply #65 on: January 29, 2019, 07:30:47 pm »
The best gear for dyno work is usually the closest to a 1:1 overall ratio to get the most accurate results.

Offline Great_Big_Abyss

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Re: Test Drive: 2019 Toyota 86 GT Manual
« Reply #66 on: January 29, 2019, 07:33:57 pm »


Seriously?  Huh.  Why?  You can get that engine with a stick...

A tuned turbo can match very, very well with a CVT.  CVT is always (theoretically) at X RPM.....

Also..some people can't drive stick.

FIFY

Offline rrocket

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Re: Test Drive: 2019 Toyota 86 GT Manual
« Reply #67 on: January 29, 2019, 07:45:40 pm »
The best gear for dyno work is usually the closest to a 1:1 overall ratio to get the most accurate results.

Ding, ding, ding!

It happens to be 6th gear in my IS-F.

Offline dirtyjeffer

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Re: Test Drive: 2019 Toyota 86 GT Manual
« Reply #68 on: January 29, 2019, 11:40:39 pm »
Do a 4th gear pull from 1500rpm in a V6 Sorento vs a 2.0T Sorento, and the V6 Sorento will pull away quicker.
i guess...but we don't drive on a dyno...so if you're loafing around at 60 km/hr at 1500 rpm, and floor it, the blown 4 will take off quite quickly and my guess is faster than the V6...i've zipped around numerous people over the last couple of years and it's quicker than most people think it may be.
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Offline rrocket

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Re: Test Drive: 2019 Toyota 86 GT Manual
« Reply #69 on: January 29, 2019, 11:55:59 pm »
Do a 4th gear pull from 1500rpm in a V6 Sorento vs a 2.0T Sorento, and the V6 Sorento will pull away quicker.
i guess...but we don't drive on a dyno...so if you're loafing around at 60 km/hr at 1500 rpm, and floor it, the blown 4 will take off quite quickly and my guess is faster than the V6...i've zipped around numerous people over the last couple of years and it's quicker than most people think it may be.

So you think if you floor a Sorento at 60km/h...the 2.0 Turbo will be quicker than flooring the V6?

So if that's truly what you think, then tell me at which speeds you think the V6 Sorento has the advantage.....

Offline HeliDriver

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Re: Test Drive: 2019 Toyota 86 GT Manual
« Reply #70 on: January 30, 2019, 12:10:43 am »
Yeah, not exactly Sorento vs. Sorento, but same idea.

n/a V6 kills turbo 4 banger from 1,500 rpm:



n/a V6 pretty much equal to turbo 4 banger from 3,500 rpm:


Offline rrocket

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Re: Test Drive: 2019 Toyota 86 GT Manual
« Reply #71 on: January 30, 2019, 12:19:08 am »
Do a 4th gear pull from 1500rpm in a V6 Sorento vs a 2.0T Sorento, and the V6 Sorento will pull away quicker.
i guess...but we don't drive on a dyno...so if you're loafing around at 60 km/hr at 1500 rpm, and floor it, the blown 4 will take off quite quickly and my guess is faster than the V6...i've zipped around numerous people over the last couple of years and it's quicker than most people think it may be.

So you think if you floor a Sorento at 60km/h...the 2.0 Turbo will be quicker than flooring the V6?

So if that's truly what you think, then tell me at which speeds you think the V6 Sorento has the advantage.....

Which has more torque and HP?  Apples to apples?

V6 has 50 more HP and is down 8 TQ.

Offline HeliDriver

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Re: Test Drive: 2019 Toyota 86 GT Manual
« Reply #72 on: January 30, 2019, 01:10:36 am »
Oh, right... automatics. I've been thinking Porsches and GTIs and EcoBoost Mustangs (all of which in my world would only have a manual) so never even considered what throwing an automatic into the mix would do.

So it's kind of irrelevant to even talk about low-rpm throttle response (or turbo lag) if the tranny is just going to downshift right away and kick the rpms up a couple grand or more. Who knows which Sorento would pull away in that scenario, but for sure the turbo 4 would have a fighting chance.

Offline rrocket

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Re: Test Drive: 2019 Toyota 86 GT Manual
« Reply #73 on: January 30, 2019, 01:19:46 am »
Oh, right... automatics. I've been thinking Porsches and GTIs and EcoBoost Mustangs (all of which in my world would only have a manual) so never even considered what throwing an automatic into the mix would do.

So it's kind of irrelevant to even talk about low-rpm throttle response (or turbo lag) if the tranny is just going to downshift right away and kick the rpms up a couple grand or more. Who knows which Sorento would pull away in that scenario, but for sure the turbo 4 would have a fighting chance.

The problem with 2.0T (or smaller turbos) is the torque falls off a cliff after low RPMS.  I've seen dyno plots where they drop 50+ TQ in only 3,000 RPM....and when flooring the auto, guess where the RPMs will be?  This isn't an issue with how Hyundai makes turbos or anything....just an issue of small displacement engines.

And we're all over the map here....sometimes low RPM response matters (in the sports cars you mention), or things like GTIs, and other fun things that really need a stick IMO to see their full potential.

EDIT...here's a plot of a 2.0L turbo...see the torque curve falling....even on the tuned version, it's dropped nearly 80TQ in only 3,000 rpm.


« Last Edit: January 30, 2019, 01:23:46 am by rrocket »

Offline dirtyjeffer

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Re: Test Drive: 2019 Toyota 86 GT Manual
« Reply #74 on: January 30, 2019, 07:46:31 am »
So you think if you floor a Sorento at 60km/h...the 2.0 Turbo will be quicker than flooring the V6?

So if that's truly what you think, then tell me at which speeds you think the V6 Sorento has the advantage.....
from what you're saying, the V6 will always be quicker...but i can say, i've never had a vehicle as quick to jump off the line as this Sorento...i'm not saying the Sorento is 911 eater, i'm just saying the instant power is pretty evident and it's certainly better than anything else i've driven, V6's and V8's included...keeping in mind, none were sports cars, and obviously most of the V6 and V8 vehicles were a while ago.

Offline dirtyjeffer

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Re: Test Drive: 2019 Toyota 86 GT Manual
« Reply #75 on: January 30, 2019, 09:35:14 am »
i got thinking about this a bit more and decided to find some stats regarding the 2.0T and V6 Sorentos...Car and Driver instrument tested both versions and they had this to say:

At the track, this turbo four trailed the V-6, taking 8.0 seconds to hit 60 mph versus 7.2, but the gap narrowed in the quarter-mile, this model doing 16.2 seconds at 87 mph as compared to 15.7 at 90.  Full-throttle drag racing probably won’t figure into most buyers’ lives with a car like this; a more telling figure may be the midrange passing times. Both versions took 3.9 seconds from 30 to 50 mph, and from 50 to 70 mph the V-6 at 5.1 seconds beat the turbo four by only a tenth. In routine city and highway driving, we never missed the six-cylinder’s power, perhaps because the turbo four’s peak torque comes on strong at only 1450 rpm.

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a15104521/2016-kia-sorento-20t-awd-test-review/

so it seems the V6 is quicker in 0-60 times and a fraction quicker in 50-70 mph passing time as well as the 1/4 mile...but i personally like the way the 2.0T drives in day to day driving (no having to wind out the engine for quick bursts of power if needed)...i do wonder one thing though, that 8 second 0-60 time mentioned is not much faster than my Rio5, and i can tell you the 2.0T Sorento is MUCH faster than the Rio5 (i've found varying numbers for my Rio5, ranging from 8.1 to 8.9 seconds, so i'm not sure what mine actually is)...i don't know if it matters, but i only use Premium Top Tier fuels in our cars (i'm not sure what was used in the testing).

Offline OliverD

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Re: Test Drive: 2019 Toyota 86 GT Manual
« Reply #76 on: January 30, 2019, 09:41:57 am »
Sounds like there won't be a successor to this car: https://www.autoblog.com/2019/01/29/toyota-86-and-subaru-brz-successor-canceled/

"Four-cylinder Supra and electric MR2 could take its place at Toyota"

Offline Jaeger

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Re: Test Drive: 2019 Toyota 86 GT Manual
« Reply #77 on: January 30, 2019, 09:52:44 am »
Flooring the throttle at highway speeds, my Sonata 2.0t definitely responded quicker than my Genesis V6.  Not apples to apples - the Genesis is quite a bit heavier and uses an 8 speed auto versus 6 for the Sonata.  The Sonata also responded quicker than my manual V6 Altima which preceded it.

Whateves.  I don't know why some find it hard to believe / accept that n/a versus turbo motors have different strengths and weaknesses and the fact that most contemporary turbos make peak torque just off idle, their advantage lies in immediacy of throttle response.  For those who want to believe that contemporary turbos take 3 or 4 seconds to spool up and provide boost, nothing will change your minds and I have zero interest in trying.

And again, I generally prefer n/a motors (n/a 4-pots excepted) but I am not delusional about their properties.
Wokeism is nothing more than the recognition and opposition of bigotry in all its forms.  Bigots are predictably triggered.

Offline dirtyjeffer

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Re: Test Drive: 2019 Toyota 86 GT Manual
« Reply #78 on: January 30, 2019, 09:53:42 am »
Sounds like there won't be a successor to this car: https://www.autoblog.com/2019/01/29/toyota-86-and-subaru-brz-successor-canceled/

"Four-cylinder Supra and electric MR2 could take its place at Toyota"
Celicas (and Supras to a lesser degree) were reasonably popular in the 80s (i owned one)...they were reliable, affordable and had decent performance...a modern version of the Celica wouldn't need to be a Mustang GT500 killer, but perhaps something to complete with the lower trim pony cars would attract some people who maybe want something more sporty than a Civic Coupe without the all out power and expense of a Mustang GT or Camaro 1LE.

Offline OliverD

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Re: Test Drive: 2019 Toyota 86 GT Manual
« Reply #79 on: January 30, 2019, 10:03:49 am »
Sounds like there won't be a successor to this car: https://www.autoblog.com/2019/01/29/toyota-86-and-subaru-brz-successor-canceled/

"Four-cylinder Supra and electric MR2 could take its place at Toyota"
Celicas (and Supras to a lesser degree) were reasonably popular in the 80s (i owned one)...they were reliable, affordable and had decent performance...a modern version of the Celica wouldn't need to be a Mustang GT500 killer, but perhaps something to complete with the lower trim pony cars would attract some people who maybe want something more sporty than a Civic Coupe without the all out power and expense of a Mustang GT or Camaro 1LE.

Is there really a market for something like that though?