Topic: Push for snow tire rebate

[vdk]

Shnak, why on earth should drivers with all-season tires be PENALIZED?  They are lawful and safe to use.

Alright fine... insurance rates / deductibles should be raised across the board by 20%, and then 20% discount given to those with winter tires. Is that better?

What's up with you? Have a coffee and wake up.

PS: Your model gives you a delta of close to 0%.

Not for those who insist on using all season tires during winter months... they'd be stuck with the 20% raise in insurance rates, while those with proper winter tires would effectively stay at the same rate.

Instead of paying the insurance companies even more money, after all they got 6 grand off my back alone this year... how about those who choose to run on winters get an incentive to do so, instead of being penalized. Make sense? It is not mandatory to have winter tires in Ontario, no one should be penalized because they drive on all seasons.

Your premium is calculated based on an algorithm that takes into account accident rates. Most people don't buy winter tires, therefore accident rates for those with winters will be a little lower than the general average... by how much I don't know but it is.

So in the end, insurance companies make more money off people who buy winter tires because they are charged a 'general' premium. How about we get a cut... Fair enough?

[Shnak]

I just think it's stupid to 'get by' on all season tires... why not buy winter tires? It'll make your much-loved all season tires last longer as they're stored away in your garage ~4 months every year.

Some people, like my in-laws, are really fine with all-seasons.  They simply don't drive if it's crappy weather and the car may only move a couple times a week and is never on the 401.  They live in town about a kilometer from the nearest grocery store/pharmacy.  If they really have to get somewhere in a snowstorm, they can call a cab, or us.
Not everyone has to get to work or otherwise regardless of the conditions.

So, they never go out if the temperature reaches -10ºc, right? That's when all season tires start turning into hockey pucks and lose adherance even on dry pavement.

[Shnak]

Shnak, why on earth should drivers with all-season tires be PENALIZED?  They are lawful and safe to use.

Alright fine... insurance rates / deductibles should be raised across the board by 20%, and then 20% discount given to those with winter tires. Is that better?

What's up with you? Have a coffee and wake up.

PS: Your model gives you a delta of close to 0%.

Not for those who insist on using all season tires during winter months... they'd be stuck with the 20% raise in insurance rates, while those with proper winter tires would effectively stay at the same rate.

Instead of paying the insurance companies even more money, after all they got 6 grand off my back alone this year... how about those who choose to run on winters get an incentive to do so, instead of being penalized. Make sense? It is not mandatory to have winter tires in Ontario, no one should be penalized because they drive on all seasons.

But that's the thing... Everyone who buys winter tires effectively get penalized by those who don't through insurance rates. The chance of being involved in an accident during winter on all season tires is higher, and thus, insurance claims rates are higher too. If you penalize those who don't buy winter tires, you'll leave the rates of those who do buy winter tires alone.

I don't care either way, I'm in Quebec where, for once, they made the excellent decision of passing a law forcing everyone to buy winter tires.

[blur911]

So, they never go out if the temperature reaches -10ºc, right? That's when all season tires start turning into hockey pucks and lose adherance even on dry pavement.

Depending upon the tire, that's the temperature tire companies like to push you to believe you'll fly off the road and die if you don't buy winter tires from them right now.  (I see it's up to 10c now, used to be 7c, must be global warming)

I drove our Subaru for part of a winter on Goodyear all-season Tripletreds, they were fine, didn't freeze up. Not the best choice for winter tire, but certainly not white-knuckle dangerous as I have experienced with more high-performance tires which do indeed become hockey pucks.

Tell me, do you put on your winter tires when temperatures dip below 10c in September and keep them on until June?  Just to be safe.

[Shnak]

You know, the little dash (it looks like this: "-") makes a huge difference when people talk about temperatures.

And my winter tires usually come on mid-november, and stay on until mid-april. But of course, it depends on the temperatures that winter... when temperature drops below 0ºc during the nights, that's when I seriously start putting the winter tires on. Same thing in the spring, when temperature consistently stays above 0ºc for like a week, I switch back to my all season tires.

[blur911]

You know, the little dash (it looks like this: "-") makes a huge difference when people talk about temperatures.

Doh, not enough coffee in me yet.

I do agree with you that most vehicles should be equipped with winter tires, but I don't agree it should be mandatory. Some areas don't get much winter, some don't drive in wintery conditions.
You'll probably end up with the same percentage of vehicles now equipped with the wrong tires, but then it'll be for the other 3 seasons.  Taking 10% longer to stop is just as dangerous in the summer as in the winter.

On the rebate subject, I think insurance companies should give a 10% or so discount off collision if you use winter tires.  That would seem fair to me. 

[Shnak]

I've read that winter tires are 130-150% better than all season tires for stopping distance. That's a much bigger difference than the 10% longer stopping distance for winter tires during warm months you're quoting.

[triuman]

That's a good idea, to have insurance companies provide an incentive when running dedicated winter tires. This is the first year I've run a winter tire, and I could easily feel the difference.  The winter tires inspire confidence at all speeds....

[vdk]

On the rebate subject, I think insurance companies should give a 10% or so discount off collision if you use winter tires.  That would seem fair to me. 

Well it depends on how much accident rates drop when using winter tires.

Also keep in mind it is a seasonal thing which only applies 4 months out of the 12 your premium is based on.

If say winter tires reduce accident rates by 15% during the 4 winter months, then the discount would be ~5% for the whole year - given a constant accident rate.

This concept is similar to motorcycle insurance, you pay a premium over 12 months ( or 8 ) but that premium gets used up differently each month. Plot it and you get a bell curve, with no premium used in the winter.

[dkaz]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhZCyQ3emQg

Look at the Acura MDX struggling up the hill at 1:08 probably nearly bald all season tires clearly see all four wheels spinning in futile, the SUV careening onto the sidewalk at 2:00 to avoid the MDX (going way too fast), the SUV struggling up the hill at 4:18, AWD, ABS, ESC, TC means nothing. Get proper winter tires or stay home.

Also some people with winter tires can very well be at fault for accidents if they drive stupid. Drive on winter tires and drive smart. You still have only 25% of the traction you would on dry pavement.

[blur911]

I've read that winter tires are 130-150% better than all season tires for stopping distance. That's a much bigger difference than the 10% longer stopping distance for winter tires during warm months you're quoting.

That 130-150% can indeed be the difference between quality winter tires and summer or all-season tires depending upon conditions.  But, in the present test to determine whether a tire qualifies to be called a winter tire it only has to stop 10% quicker than a typical all-season.   That's where I got the 10% from.

A big problem is that there is a huge range in the winter abilities of all-season tires, but they are all called all-season.   If we could get that misnomer taken off 75% of the tires in the category it might clear things up somewhat.  Most are truly 3 season tires.
The same is presently true for winter tires but not to the same degree, tightening up the test will help that.

Mostly I'm against the government telling me what to do.   I naturally rebel against authority and big-brotherish conditions of any kind.  Perhaps I listened to too much punk-rock in my formative years.

[aaronk]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhZCyQ3emQg

Look at the Acura MDX struggling up the hill at 1:08 probably nearly bald all season tires clearly see all four wheels spinning in futile, the SUV careening onto the sidewalk at 2:00 to avoid the MDX (going way too fast), the SUV struggling up the hill at 4:18, AWD, ABS, ESC, TC means nothing. Get proper winter tires or stay home.

Also some people with winter tires can very well be at fault for accidents if they drive stupid. Drive on winter tires and drive smart. You still have only 25% of the traction you would on dry pavement.

You must have good eyes - I personally could not read the writing on those tires. As others have said, once we have winter tires mandated in the winter, let's also have summer tires mandated for summer and rain tires mandated for rainy days. Then we can have fall and spring tires, so everyone can be as safe as absolutely possible. When possible, personal body armour should also be worn, in case anything should happen to us in the big, scary world.

Instead of pulling data from snow tire companies (hey guess what, they recommend them!!!) I found that there is actually a "Rubber association of Canada" and quoted this from their piece on winter and all-season tires...

"In the beginning there were summer tires and snow tires. Then several decades ago, the all-season tire was introduced into the marketplace which provided motorists with better winter driving performance than a summer tire and the opportunity to avoid the cost and inconvenience of the bi-annual winter tire changeover. Some Canadian motorists still choose all-season tires because those tires meet their personal needs based on driving habits, where they live and their comfort level with winter driving. For those wanting the very best, safest winter driving experience, the tire industry recommends winter tires. Tire technology advances in tread compound and tread design have improved driving performance across the entire spectrum of tires, but none more pronounced than with winter tires."

So yes, if you want the VERY BEST, go ahead and buy snows. Mandatory? No thanks, go vote for the communist party and let me do what I want with the money I earn.

http://www.rubberassociation.ca/Welcome/Welcome.html
http://www.betiresmart.ca/buying/winterlist.html

[Gardiner Westbound]

The Toronto Star reports Premier McGuinty is unequivocally promising he won't make snow tires mandatory in Ontario. We all know how good a McGuinty promise is. That means they'll likely be mandatory by this time next year.

[quadzilla]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhZCyQ3emQg

Look at the Acura MDX struggling up the hill at 1:08 probably nearly bald all season tires clearly see all four wheels spinning in futile, the SUV careening onto the sidewalk at 2:00 to avoid the MDX (going way too fast), the SUV struggling up the hill at 4:18, AWD, ABS, ESC, TC means nothing. Get proper winter tires or stay home.

How about that bus! Ouch.

[mrthompson]

The Toronto Star reports Premier McGuinty is unequivocally promising he won't make snow tires mandatory in Ontario. We all know how good a McGuinty promise is. That means they'll likely be mandatory by this time next year.

Indeed.

[overtakeyouintheleftlane]

"Some people, like my in-laws, are really fine with all-seasons.  They simply don't drive if it's crappy weather and the car may only move a couple times a week and is never on the 401.  They live in town about a kilometer from the nearest grocery store/pharmacy."

- This kind of statement applies to my girlfriend's mom, her workplace is a 2 minute drive and she only uses the car to go to work or the supermarket which is 5 minutes away and never uses the highways... most collisions happen near home and usually on the streets, not the highway as they are generally safer and cleared a lot better.

I had to convince her to buy winter tires for her '03 Civic. How did I do it? I took her to an empty parking lot, told her to drive up to 40 km/h beside my car and slam on the brakes at a pre-determined point. Even though my car is a lot larger and heavier I still stopped before her car. I had her drive my car (winter tires) and slam on the brakes and then do the same with her car (all-seasons). She bought General Tire Altimax Arctics after that and swears by the winter tires now.