Author Topic: Canadians will have smth to outsell Volt: 2011 Focus EV by Magna  (Read 15640 times)

Offline MKII

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Re: Canadians will have smth to outsell Volt: 2011 Focus EV by Magna
« Reply #40 on: March 26, 2009, 04:08:36 pm »
Smith Electric Vehicles U.S. Corp. has signed a lease with the Kansas City Aviation Department for about 100,000 square feet at the American Airlines overhaul base at Kansas City International Airport.

The development, which will make Kansas City home to one of the nation’s first assembly plants for electric-powered commercial vehicles, will be formally announced at 12:30 p.m. Friday in the former Farmland Industries Inc. building at 1220 N.W. Ambassador Dr.

“It’s all signed; it’s a done deal,” City Councilman Russ Johnson said.

Bryan Hansel, CEO of Smith Electric Vehicles, recently confirmed that Kansas City had made the company’s short list. He said at the time that the company was considering sites in a number of states.

Starting next year, Hansel said, the plant will manufacture an electric version of Ford Motor Co.’s new Transit Connect light-duty vehicle.

Offline G35X

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Re: Canadians will have smth to outsell Volt: 2011 Focus EV by Magna
« Reply #41 on: March 26, 2009, 05:36:07 pm »
There are organizations such as BC Hydro's Powerex… “ – X-Traction

Thank you for the information, which reminded me of the rebate we got from BC Hydro a few years ago as the result of the windfall profit BC Hydro made from selling its energy to California…  Was it right after the ENRON fiasco?

Indeed, while BC Hydro is buying cheap energy from Alberta and California to save water for more profitable business come hot summer days, my baseboard heater is causing pollution in the skies of Edmonton and faraway places like Los Angeles.  I do not know if Skytrain, Translink trolleys and the new Canada Line are on the grid, but if so, they are guiltier than my baseboard heater.

As for California I think you are right that the projected supply line indicates the amount of energy secured and not necessarily means the energy is actually produced.  But, with several pump-up hydro dams including big Castaic and Pyramid lakes at least a portion of the “surplus” must be used for pumping up water.  The rest may be sold cheap (or even given with money attached) to BC Hydro.

Getting back to the main subject of electrifying automobiles… yes, I agree EV’s should not be recharged during peak period. They should be charged up overnight with reduced-rate surplus energy. Suppose there are one million EV’s charging at the same time, each drawing 3KW, the demand is 3GW, which is well within the off-peak surplus of CAISO or Ontario Hydro.

As for the NB windmills, if their energy is sold cheap to Hydro Quebec so that it can reduce its hydro output to conserve water for future sale, it defeats the purpose of the non-polluting plants.  Wind and solar plants should be constructed with the purpose to reduce the number of coal/gas/oil-fired plants.  Even though the current hydro buffer system is working, I believe storage at the source as well as at the consumption point is better approach.  Already there is a great demand and interest in the NaS battery made by NGK Insulators coming from all over the world including Xcel Energy (suppliers to Colorado, Michigan, Minnesota, New Mexico, North Dakota, South Dakota, Texas and Wisconsin), NY Port Authority (consumer for the purpose of peak shaving), Younicos of Germany (solar system manufacture for the purpose of stabilizing output) in addition to Tokyo Electric Company (co-developer of the NaS battery).  Also, I think household UPS system in the size of a Kitchen Kelvinator using Li-ion battery pack developed for EV use, which should keep us off-grid during peak hours, has a great potential.  If the UPS is coupled with rooftop solar panels, that’s even better.  Besides, assembly and installation of the UPS create jobs locally.

I think there is too much vested interest in some of the big players in traditional technology that it will be a very long time before we see this... “ – MKII

Yes, I agree. Companies like BC Hydro might not like the idea of storage at consumer’s side especially the one with solar panels.  Probably they will push politicians to make laws to control its safety tightly.






« Last Edit: March 26, 2009, 05:39:48 pm by G35X »

Offline X-Traction

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Re: Canadians will have smth to outsell Volt: 2011 Focus EV by Magna
« Reply #42 on: March 27, 2009, 11:35:35 pm »
Quote from: G35X
As for the NB windmills, if their energy is sold cheap to Hydro Quebec so that it can reduce its hydro output to conserve water for future sale, it defeats the purpose of the non-polluting plants.  Wind and solar plants should be constructed with the purpose to reduce the number of coal/gas/oil-fired plants.

But any time you generate power with windmills, and it's not needed immediately, you can offset some hydro and thus keep water behind dams (or pump water uphill). Or you can continue generating hydro and thus offset some thermal or nuclear generation.  The dams can act as buffers to allow for the inflexible operating characteristics of thermal plants. 

You can't offset hydro with other sources indefinitely because the dams eventually will end up full.  (Or alternatively, empty.)  In the late winter, many dams in BC have to spill water just to make sure there's capacity to accommodate the spring freshet without overtopping the dams or downstream flooding.  Presumably as much of that spillage as possible is used to generate power that can be sold and therefore offset dirtier sources.

Whether wind and solar are built to offset thermal or nuclear plants, or to charge electric cars doesn't really matter.  What matters is total load vs the sustainability of the average electricity generation source.

Quote
Companies like BC Hydro might not like the idea of storage at consumer’s side especially the one with solar panels.  Probably they will push politicians to make laws to control its safety tightly.

I'm not party to BC Hydro's inner workings, but I certainly have the impression they are guilty of all the foot dragging they could get away with in terms of supporting wind, solar, run of river, and tidal.  I could discuss what has happened in the last 10 years in that regard, but it has little to do with cars.

To summarize a few things:

- Hydro dams provide ideal buffering capability for the variability of wind and solar power.  Hydro can also store excess thermal/nuclear generation, or provide a top-up for peak loads.
- There is no excess on-grid renewable/clean electricity generation capacity.  It is all spoken for and used.  Often at a premium.
- All new renewable/clean capacity either reduces the need for new thermal/dirty/nuclear capacity, or is used up by increasing demand.
- Therefore it can be said that any new load, such as charging electric cars, increases thermal/dirty/nuclear generation.  Whether this is when there's excess capacity or not, due to the hydro buffering aspect.
- And so it may make sense to match demand for charging electric cars, to new electricity supply from conservation and new renewable/clean sources.  You may choose between heating your driveway or driving your electric car, for instance.
- It may well be that powering cars with electricity generated by burning coal is more efficient than powering cars with gas engines, but I don't know.
- It makes no sense to take electricity and make hydrogen to make electricity to power cars.  You lose efficiency at every conversion, and hydrogen is costly and dangerous to handle.  That's why the promoters of this technology want the public to pay for a distribution system.  It makes vastly more sense to just put the electricity straight into cars.
- It may well be that residential battery storage of electricity is viable.  I suspect the money could be better put into solar, for instance.  Would it be better than home generators?  Interesting idea that needs to be evaluated. 
- Private ICE cars are inherently one of the most inefficient means of getting people about.  It's a system that's bleeding our society dry with massive and varied costs.  It may have made sense when it was set up, and the downsides could hardly have been foreseen, but the problems are very apparent now.
And some cretins think I hate cars.

Offline EV Dan

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Re: Canadians will have smth to outsell Volt: 2011 Focus EV by Magna
« Reply #43 on: March 29, 2009, 03:50:58 pm »
Great info, guys.

It does make very little sense to use electricity to make hydrogen by splitting H2O to then convert it back in an EV. I don't think the overall efficiency will be any better than that of an ICE.
Why hydrogen idea had such a moment (remember, even Bush rooted for it) is because it would save the big oil and all its massive infrastructure during the inevitable transition to EVs. And here is why there is such interest in H2 from the oil lobby:

"Steam reforming of natural gas or syngas sometimes referred to as steam methane reforming (SMR) is the most common method of producing commercial bulk hydrogen as well as the hydrogen used in the industrial synthesis of ammonia. It is also the least expensive method.[1] At high temperatures (700 – 1100 °C) and in the presence of a metal-based catalyst (nickel), steam reacts with methane to yield carbon monoxide and hydrogen. These two reactions are reversible in nature.

    CH4 + H2O → CO + 3 H2

Additional hydrogen can be recovered by a lower-temperature gas-shift reaction with the carbon monoxide produced. The reaction is summarised by:

    CO + H2O → CO2 + H2

The United States produces nine million tons of hydrogen per year, mostly with steam reforming of natural gas. The worldwide ammonia production, using hydrogen derived from steam reforming, was 109 million metric tonnes in 2004."
- from wiki.

In essence it can be seen as shifting pollution from ICEs to industrial hydrogen plants. Which is more harmful to the environment is not clear as in steam reforming nasty CO and CO2 are produced (talk about the global warming). Even if all CO eventually becomes CO2, which is bad in itself, there is huge waste of water and energy (heating up methane to 1100*C), besides losses in compression of both CH4 and H2 and transportation to the end consumer. Thats why so many have spoken against the idea, not because they liked BEVs a little better.
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Offline X-Traction

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Re: Canadians will have smth to outsell Volt: 2011 Focus EV by Magna
« Reply #44 on: March 30, 2009, 11:48:48 pm »
I'm glad someone's interested in discussing this stuff.

On the safety front, I remember seeing a tv news report when a Praxair tanker truck was delivering hydrogen to the Ballard plant in Burnaby.  A valve got broken and hydrogen was leaking.

The Burnaby fire chief, speaking from the perimeter of a 2km evacuation zone, was shaking as he discussed the problem.  When you see the fire chief shaking.....

A hydrogen infrastructure is a terrorists dream come true.

I wonder how many hydrogen boosters owned Ballard stock?

BC Hydro had some handsomely paid staff promoting hydrogen for transportation.  Despite the question why a hydro utility would pay some people to promote use of electricity while paying others (PowerSmart) to reduce use of electricity.

Anyway, about 6-7 years ago I pointed out to the top guy in the pro-hydrogen program that with existing technology, powering cars with hydrogen was a net loss of energy.  He responded that we could use "spare" electricity.  I countered that there was no such thing as spare electricity.  He just smiled, presumably thinking of his salary.

Hmm, I see Powertech Labs, a subsidiary of BC Hydro, still has a hydrogen program.
http://www.powertechlabs.com/cfm/index.cfm?It=901&Id=145

You too can get in on the nonsense, by leasing a hydrogen pickup:
http://www.powertechlabs.com/cfm/index.cfm?It=901&Id=149


And the BC Government just shoved $8million more into the hydrogen highway boondoggle:
http://www.bchydro.com/news/articles/conservation/bc_governments_budget_remains_green.html


Maybe if they stick an off-grid run of river plant in the middle of nowhere, make hydrogen with it, take the hydrogen to some place that's also off-grid, and produce power, it MAY make sense.


Offline eddy4

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Re: Canadians will have smth to outsell Volt: 2011 Focus EV by Magna
« Reply #45 on: April 01, 2009, 11:11:59 am »
Sorry if I am repeating stuf that has already been posted ..but i've been in a coma for a few years... kidding...
When I last visited NewYorkCity the cab drivers were pissed off that they were being forced by federal law to give up their Crown Vics and having to drive Hybrids , I rode in a Toyota Camry and a small Ford suv Hybrid but all makes were represented . The drivers had several issues with the new cars , They are smaller in the inside , they are not as robust as the CrownVic (brakes and suspension), they need more frequent service , and since the cabs always have air or heat on the gas motor is always running so much for cleaner air .
But running a hybrid as a NYC cab for 6months is a life cycle that would take civilian 6 years . One driver said his toyota was on loan from Toyota Motor company and that he was not to "baby it" and he wasn't ...

Eddy :)