Topic: Buying car in Ont and bringing to Alberta - PST?

[ArticSteve]

I think we covered that.  I would do something like that.  But you would need to drive right at the speed limit the whole trip, because if you get stopped by the fuzz you are going to get nailed for sure and they wouldn't let you drive the car away.

Then there is insurance.  What insurance company is going to insure a car that is on the road, but not licensed and in someone else's name from another province?

I think the Trip Permit is the only route.  The remaining squabble is about whether Ontario PST needs to be paid to obtain the Trip Permit.

I am going to call the local gals at the License Office tomorrow as it is too cold for "Artic" Steve to go outside and do something other than avoid on going house projects.

[Ucda]

When a purchaser buys from a dealer the collection (or exemption) of tax is the job of the dealer.  That buyer does not pay tax at the Ontario licence office when they register the vehicle in their name and buy a 10 day trip permit.  The Ontario licence office only engages in the collection of PST when its a private sale.  

Also, the idea of letting the purchaser drive off while a vehicle is still in the seller's name may be good for the buyer, but no great shakes for the seller - liability issues may arise, especially if the vehicle is illegally plated as has been discussed!

[ovr50]

When I recently bot a car in AB and moved it to BC, the insurance worked like this - before I left BC to get the car from AB, I obtained a faxed copy of the Bill of Sale from the AB dealer, that allowed ICBC to place temporary insurance good for only 2 days on the car, then I got it in AB, got a Travel Permit in AB and drove it back to BC with the temp. ICBC insurance in place and the Travel Permit stuck on the window. Once back home, I had the car inspected for ICBC purposes, gave ICBC the documentation and it was plated/insured here in BC. At that time, I paid the BC PST. Insurance is no problem but must be arranged in advance.

[Railton]

ucda,
Not if you sell the vehicle with the Ontario used car package and it is sold uncertified and "as is". The chap who purchased the car contacted his local MTO and insurance company apparently to advise them of his intent and to pass them the serial number of the car prior to making his trip to pick the car up out of province. He showed me the letter (e-mail) from his insurance agent who had advised him that he had 10 days or something to transfer the ownership. For tax that he paid when he transfered the ownership in his home province I have no idea.
As far as any potential liability issues I'm sure if there were any that my Wife the Lawyer would have prevented this out of province sale from proceeding.
Railton

[ArticSteve]

Ok, phoned the local licensing office and here is what the gals had to say:

1.  No PST payable at this office for out of province buyers.
2.  No Ontario Buyers Package required.
3.  No proof of Insurance Required.  Person only required to state name of Insurance Company, address and Policy number.  Person must sign a document stating all the afore-mentioned.
4.  6 day paper travel permit issued commencing the date of sale.  So if date of sale just happenned to be 4 days prior to attending the licensing office then the permit will be issued for only the 2 remaining days.  If for some reason, somebody buys first and delays their trip home and 6 days elapse then no trip permit is issued.

The gals say that if your unsure about the date of departure then arrange with the owner to omit date of sale until the actual day of departure.

The Bill of Sale must have:
1. Names and address of both seller and buyer and they must match the ownership and ID of the out of province buyer.
2. Date of Sale.
3. Price
4. Both signatures

Same applies to purchase from Dealer.  Buyer brings in Purchase Agreement, but the date on the Dealers copy of the Purchase Agreement is the start date of the Trip Permit.  So don't buy on a Friday of a long weekend and then go to get a Trip Permit on the following Tuesday.  That would be the 5th day.

Like a normal Ontario Trip Permit, the car can be soild uncertified or "as is" as long as the ownership has not been previously transferred to "unfit".

[Ucda]

Hi guys,

My final two cents on this one.

First cent - When you sell a vehicle, whether you are a dealer or a private seller, you don't want that vehicle to go down the road (in Ontario or out of it) while it is still in your name - trust me on this.  Not only could you be charged (as the registered owner) if some illegality is noted by the police etc., but if there is an accident and, god forbid, someone is hurt or killed it is a matter of course that the insurance companies engaged in lawsuits over damages will name the registered owner of the vehicle in the lawsuit.  I see this all the time.  Yes, you can argue you sold the vehicle and, yes, you will probably avoid liability at the end of the day, but you get to defend a lawsuit and pay a lawyer, often, for the privilege of making those arguments.

Second cent - when the vehicle is registered, here in Ontario, to the buyer's name it must have a safety standards certificate or the vehicle will go into the buyer's name "unfit" and a trip permit cannot be obtained.  The suggestion that a vehicle can be sold "as is" without a safety and have a trip permit issued is based on the fact that the vehicle remains in the name of the seller in a "fit" condition and, as I have said above, no seller should be comfortable with that.

This thread is a very good discussion because, in my experience, it is an issue that causes much confusion and has come back to bite people more than once.

[ArticSteve]

Ucda:

Regards to your first point.  Absolutely.  Many folks, myself included, have sold cars and let the unit go without first attending the licensing office with the buyer to witness the transfer.  Yes, even with a dated and signed bill of sale or a completed Ontario's Buyer Package there is nothing to prevent an insurance company seeking third party compensation to come after you if the buyer has had a loss before transfering the ownership.

Many folks argue this point, being that they think that they are immune from legal challenges from some wealthy insurance company based on the fact that they have a bill of sale.  The issue is about legal expenses more than the issue it's self.

Regarding your last post, that is also correct.  It is a risk.  My suggestion is to keep your insurance on the sold vehicle for another 6 days before cancelling it as a hedge against exposure.

[ArticSteve]

UCDA; I was thinking about this a bit more regarding the out of province buyer.  I do not believe an out of town buyer can actually transfer a vehicle into their name inside of Ontario if they have an out of Ontario address.  So I believe the Trip Permit is considered a transfer for legal purposes and once it is applied for and issued the Ontario seller is off the hook in a legal sense because the buyer has prsented a bill of sale and an insurance declaration to the Onartio government that they are the new owner.

This is different than an out of town buyer purchasing a vehicle and then attaches his plates
to that vehicle and taking off.  Despite a bill of sale the seller is opening himself up to a potential loss if the buyer screws up. ie: actually has no insurance, get DUI on the way back home and hits somebody.

[Railton]

The ultimate bottom line here is that liability (in the case of an accident) lies with the driver, where ever he/she lives.
Ownership and registration are two different things. Ownership of a vehicle is based on the legal documents of bill of sale and signed off registration to the new owner.
Railton

[ArticSteve]

It's never that simple.  Spent 12 years working for insurances companies defending automobile claims.  

Scenario:

Out of province buyer purchases private sale car in Ontario.  Bill of Sale signed with date, car, addresses of each person, price.  Dude leaves with car with illegally attached plates, ownership, his bill of sale copy.  Car found later inside or outside Ontario, abandonded, after an at fault loss.  Car is traced back to Ontario owner thru VIN by Police.  Insurance company or private party that suffered loss demand payment.  Ontario owner say he sold it to Bill Smith.  Other side says fine, who is Bill Smith?  Ontario owner says some guy and here is the Bill of Sale.  Other side says no Bill Smith at the address noted on the Bill of Sale.  Other side says prove that Bill Smith existed or the person that you sold the car to was actually Bill Smith.  To this point, the regulatory authority being the Ontario Ministry of Transportation, has not recognized Bill Smith as a person.

The legal fight begins.  Average dude, being the original owner/seller, cannot match the money spent on legal fees from the other side.  He gets wiped out from legal fees in the process.

That is just one of countless scenarios that happens.  That is the kind of exposure/risk that UCDA was referring to.  I do believe that once the Trip Permit is issued and the buyer signs an insurance declaration and  declares their DL number and address to the Ministry then the Ontario seller is covered in a legal sense, because the Ministry has accepted that as fact and then have issued the Trip Permit which makes it official.

[Railton]

Artic,
The saying buyer beware applies to sellers as well in these casses. Know who you are doing bussiness with. Do you know the address of the individual, phone numbers, e-mail addresses and have you actually tried them? Do you know where the purchasor works? The seller should take pains to ensure that all paperwork is in order, names addresses and phone numbers listed, copies of insurance letters or e-mails made and photocopies taken of everything including the signed off registration. Additionaly, keep your insurance on the sold car for a few days and don't forget to take a picture of the new owner standing besides your old car with keys in hand.
In hindsight if I ever sold to an out of province buyer again I would likely insist on the trip to the MTO for the trip permit.  
This has to be one of the better threads on the forum of late. Good information.
Railton

[Nonzerosum]

Holy Cow!!!

Thanks a whole bunch everyone!  This was above and beyond the call!

Thanks thanks thanks - I'm sold on the forums here.

btw:  it was a 96 993 c2s with apparently only 19thousand? kilometers.  It has mysteriously disappeared from the website shortly after I called to confirm that this was not a typo.  You see, there is also listed a 97 993 with 79K Kms on the site... At Exactly The Same Price!  As, they say, if it is too good to be true...

So there may be a decent 97 c2 here in Alberta that I'm looking at.

Thanks again!

[Trailertrash]

Hi there. We want to buy a travel trailer in Illinois, import into Ontario and spend several months travelling the east coast. We live in BC and cannot license a vehicle here unless it is inspected here. ICBC is unmovable on this. We could license it in Ontario using a friends address and pay Ont PST and BC PST when we return.  
The concerns are:  
1. Can I register a trailer in Ont when I have a BC drivers license and BC licensed tow vehicle? Ont MOT was vague on this.  
2. If we leave Ont within 30 days but don't return to BC right away, would we qualify for the Ont PST rebate?
3. Any other bright ideas?  

PS: The trailer price from the internet dealer in Illinois is low enough that it's a good deal even if both PSTs were paid.  

Appreciate your thots on this.  
TT

[Brig]

Wow.  That's a complicated one, Trash.  Welcome to the forum.  Hopefully the experts will be along shortly to help you out.  My head spins for you...  

[ovr50]

Trash - your situation is likely too complicated for most of us on here; so I suggest you contact the applicable govt agency in Ontario and make your enguiries there. You might also try the Ontario equivalent of the BCAA. The sales tax queries require a provincial employee to answer IMO. You are already aware you will need BC inspection in order to register it here in BC. Good luck.

[Trailertrash]

Hi again, it's been a while but I finally got my problem sorted out.  In desperation I wrote to the president of ICBC and copied it to BC Attorney General who is responsible for ICBC and to the BC Minister of Transport and to my local MLA.  The first response was an email from some bureaucrat at ICBC who repeated the party line that "it is a requirement" that the vehicle be in BC to be licensed.  However, don't give up, a few days later I got another email from a manager at ICBC who said we could work something out.  So we did, and I now have a letter setting out all the steps to license the trailer in BC while it is in Ontario. He couldn't have been more helpful. I guess every once in a while the squeaky wheels get greased, so hang in there and keep sqeaking!
Cheers, Trash

[ovr50]

Good on ya, Trash, you got the job done and learned something in the process. Thanks for reporting back - not everyone does that and we are left wondering what happened.