Topic: Long-Term Test Update 3: 2014 Hyundai Santa Fe XL Premium

[dragonfly]

as i've said before, raising the minimum wages doesn't "fix" anything...getting people to invest in themselves (through a trade, higher education, etc) and have them earn a better wage is what benefits everyone.

So we're going to have a nation of well educated, well employed people?  Sounds awesome.  But, who is going to work at McDonalds or Timmies or WalMart?  We have huge numbers of those service jobs and I doubt we can send all those folks into trades or higher education as many of them simply don't have the ability, and the economy can't adjust to having hundreds of thousands of people leaving the retail industry.

Your vision works well on a micro, individual level, but fails on a macro level.
 Very well put John..Might I add something to the WalMart and McD profit equation...Just where do those profits go, anyway?  The pockets of Sam's kids (enormous amounts) and the shareholders who do such hard work for their money...I liked Henry Ford's attitude toward the shareholders.....(screw 'em)...Thanks Jack

Low minimum wages are hurting the US.  A company like WalMart or McDonalds takes advantage of the high unemployment to pay low wages.  Those two companies in particular are not just scraping by and have to pay people poorly.  They make hundreds of billions in profits.  They could easily raise their wages and not have to pass along one penny to consumers.

The real killer is the costs associated with low minimum wages.  The costs to everyone.  Those folks at WalMart earning $7,25/hr have to rely on government programs like food stamps and income assistance.  Tax payers are providing hundreds of millions of dollars in subsidies to massive companies that are hugely profitable in the form of transfer payments to low wage earners.

It is detrimental to the entire nation to have the minimum wage so low that we have people earning less than a subsistence income.

The cost of living is high in Oz and for many reasons, not the minimum wage.  Small population, little manufacturing, little exportation of resources or goods, no vast energy resources, and on and on.

[Sir Osis of Liver]

Governments should set a floor for income and all wage brackets above that should be based off of that minimum floor. What happens now is wages are established at the top, with the bottom tier squeezed into abject poverty.

don't get me wrong, i don't think minimum wage should be $3/hr...my point is that, instead of simply raising the minimum wage, look at ways at getting more people working, in better paying fields...a mix of investment, training, education, etc...that is far more beneficial to our nation than simply paying cashiers at the LCBO $70k/year.

This emphasis on credentials has also lead to employers requiring formal education for positions that haven't required it in the past, and that is not related to the role once employed. All the requirement serves to do is act as an additional barrier to employment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credentialism

More people have higher education now than at any time in history. You'd expect that wages would be higher than ever, but they aren't. In inflation adjusted  terms, family incomes have barely budged since the 1980s. With education costs running over double what they were back then, much higher housing costs, young families have much lower discretionary spending than at any time in recent memory.

[TheHire]

[Sir Osis of Liver]

^

[Black Hatch]

Just saw the Hyundai Sante Fe AJAC SUV award commercial for 2013 while watching CBC HNIC.

They only have a few more days to milk that award/commercial

[dirtyjeffer]

It is detrimental to the entire nation to have the minimum wage so low that we have people earning less than a subsistence income.

i think you are debating a point i didn't make...i never said minimum wage should be $3/hr...our minimum wage is already a decent amount...simply raising it for the sake of raising it doesn't solve any problems and would be nothing more than an easy political trick to do so...there will always be people who work at McDonalds, or other lower paying jobs...some people simply don't want to do anything else, or just want a part time job.

[johngenx]

A LOT of those people can't do anything more. Those aren't lazy or unambiguous people. They just don't have the ability to do more.

And even $10 per hour in Alberta is ridiculous. At that rate we have to have government subsidize people, which means we are essentially paying McDonalds and WalMart. Really?  Subsidies for WalMart?  Makes my blood boil to think we are putting money into that families pockets without even shopping there.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Sir Osis of Liver]

It is detrimental to the entire nation to have the minimum wage so low that we have people earning less than a subsistence income.

i think you are debating a point i didn't make...i never said minimum wage should be $3/hr...our minimum wage is already a decent amount...simply raising it for the sake of raising it doesn't solve any problems and would be nothing more than an easy political trick to do so...there will always be people who work at McDonalds, or other lower paying jobs...some people simply don't want to do anything else, or just want a part time job.

That's just puritan ideology and it is not supported by economic evidence. Your aim is to punish those who you deem to not be doing anything beneficial to society.

Raising the minimum wage, or even better having an unconditional basic income has been proven to lead to economic growth and stability. The Mincome experiment in Dauphin Manitoba is probably the best know experiment with an unconditional income in Canada and was a next positive.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mincome

Why shouldn't someone working at McDonald's receive a living wage?

[johngenx]

Why shouldn't someone working at McDonald's receive a living wage?

There's a lot of judgment about what other people should earn.  Most people see service jobs as undeserving of anything above starvation.  Never mind that those companies are hugely profitable and could pay their employees a great deal more without passing a single penny along to consumers.

There is a lot of rhetoric that those are just jobs for kids anyway.  A large percentage of minimum wage positions are held by adults.  Then there is the "they should get a better job or better education or..." and that's just not the reality for a LOT of people out there.

What is a living wage today?  $10/hour?  Really?  That's just under $20K per year.  About $1600/month gross, or $1200 a month net.  Barely getting by in 1990.  Horrible in 2014.

[safristi]

I don't know about many of you,but Minimum wage jobs are ENTRY LEVEL for MOST..
 should be too.......I see High skoolers and (...some seniors ...social endevour and topping up a pension) at Mickeys and the like ..they the young ones... move up

 Make these jobs $18 bucks an hour and we are already getting Tablet ordering menus at Applebees and such...less waiters.....(mainly 'cos in the US Obamacare is ripping into Co's with more than 50 employees)
 here in Canada that $18 .hour DREAM (I repeat these ENTRY LEVEL JOBS are for experience!!! )
 Not to buy a Bimmer and live in a 3,000sq ft HOUSE  FFS......................half of them will dissapear with too high minimums     same for ANY PRODUCT...............

[Ex-airbalancer]

Time to move this to a different thread

I do not like the dash of the Santa Fe

[sailor723]

Time to move this to a different thread

I do not like the dash of the Santa Fe

I don't like the fact the one that Motor Trend longterm tested developed a bunch of squeaks and rattles.

[dirtyjeffer]

Your aim is to punish those who you deem to not be doing anything beneficial to society.

that's not my aim at all.

my point is there will always be people to fill those "minimum wage entry level jobs", and that is fine...invest in resources and training to encourage more education and training instead of spending the money on simple wage increases...i am not advocating punishing people for taking entry level jobs, nor am i advocating people working such jobs be paid $3/hr.

my point is simply that we should foster an environment of learning, success and investment (personal) rather than simply paying more money for nothing...if you took 50 people at Wal-Mart, who currently get $10.75/hr right now, and raised minimum wage to $18/hr, you aren't really helping any one with that...the reality is, while those workers will now make more money, i'll guess that 10 will be let go...so now, instead of 50 people making $10.25/hr, you will have 40 making $18/hr and 10 unemployed...since the 40 remaining will be paid more money, the expectations on them will also be increased, and you may find that 10-15 will get tossed, and replaced with other workers who have more retail experience...in the end, many of the original workers may no longer have a job.

i think better access to opportunities is far more beneficial to both the individual and the nation as a whole...when the Ford plant closed down here a couple of years ago, almost 80% of the workforce didn't even have a high school diploma...while it was great those workers made good money all the years, now they find themselves unemployable, or if they can get a job, are working for $12/hr as that is what a "high school drop out" makes in simple entry level jobs today...it's pretty tough for a 50 year old high school drop out to start their career over again.

[Sir Osis of Liver]

Your aim is to punish those who you deem to not be doing anything beneficial to society.

that's not my aim at all.

my point is there will always be people to fill those "minimum wage entry level jobs", and that is fine...invest in resources and training to encourage more education and training instead of spending the money on simple wage increases...i am not advocating punishing people for taking entry level jobs, nor am i advocating people working such jobs be paid $3/hr.

my point is simply that we should foster an environment of learning, success and investment (personal) rather than simply paying more money for nothing...if you took 50 people at Wal-Mart, who currently get $10.75/hr right now, and raised minimum wage to $18/hr, you aren't really helping any one with that...the reality is, while those workers will now make more money, i'll guess that 10 will be let go...so now, instead of 50 people making $10.25/hr, you will have 40 making $18/hr and 10 unemployed...since the 40 remaining will be paid more money, the expectations on them will also be increased, and you may find that 10-15 will get tossed, and replaced with other workers who have more retail experience...in the end, many of the original workers may no longer have a job.

i think better access to opportunities is far more beneficial to both the individual and the nation as a whole...when the Ford plant closed down here a couple of years ago, almost 80% of the workforce didn't even have a high school diploma...while it was great those workers made good money all the years, now they find themselves unemployable, or if they can get a job, are working for $12/hr as that is what a "high school drop out" makes in simple entry level jobs today...it's pretty tough for a 50 year old high school drop out to start their career over again.

Whether you intent to punish or not is irrelevant. You are suggesting preventing someone from earning a living wage because you personally find the job distasteful and of little value.

Thought experiments notwithstanding, over the last number of years studies have come out that show that increasing minimum wage doesn't negatively impact labour participation rates, it in fact stimulates the economy. Essentially, more money is turned over because low income families spend all their income on necessities instead of stagnating in an offshore account somewhere as part of an executive's nest egg.

If better education actually worked as you suggest, why have family incomes been stagnant since the 1980s, even as families transitioned from single income to two incomes, and people are better educated than ever?

Conglomerates can move plants to cheap labour markets because right wing governments removed the tariffs and duties that used to prevent that kind of thing. There will always be a cheaper place to move your plant, and more often than not the local government will pay for a substantial part of the plant and training.

[Northernridge]

Your aim is to punish those who you deem to not be doing anything beneficial to society.

that's not my aim at all.

my point is there will always be people to fill those "minimum wage entry level jobs", and that is fine...invest in resources and training to encourage more education and training instead of spending the money on simple wage increases...i am not advocating punishing people for taking entry level jobs, nor am i advocating people working such jobs be paid $3/hr.

my point is simply that we should foster an environment of learning, success and investment (personal) rather than simply paying more money for nothing...if you took 50 people at Wal-Mart, who currently get $10.75/hr right now, and raised minimum wage to $18/hr, you aren't really helping any one with that...the reality is, while those workers will now make more money, i'll guess that 10 will be let go...so now, instead of 50 people making $10.25/hr, you will have 40 making $18/hr and 10 unemployed...since the 40 remaining will be paid more money, the expectations on them will also be increased, and you may find that 10-15 will get tossed, and replaced with other workers who have more retail experience...in the end, many of the original workers may no longer have a job.

i think better access to opportunities is far more beneficial to both the individual and the nation as a whole...when the Ford plant closed down here a couple of years ago, almost 80% of the workforce didn't even have a high school diploma...while it was great those workers made good money all the years, now they find themselves unemployable, or if they can get a job, are working for $12/hr as that is what a "high school drop out" makes in simple entry level jobs today...it's pretty tough for a 50 year old high school drop out to start their career over again.

Whether you intent to punish or not is irrelevant. You are suggesting preventing someone from earning a living wage because you personally find the job distasteful and of little value.

Thought experiments notwithstanding, over the last number of years studies have come out that show that increasing minimum wage doesn't negatively impact labour participation rates, it in fact stimulates the economy. Essentially, more money is turned over because low income families spend all their income on necessities instead of stagnating in an offshore account somewhere as part of an executive's nest egg.

If better education actually worked as you suggest, why have family incomes been stagnant since the 1980s, even as families transitioned from single income to two incomes, and people are better educated than ever?

Conglomerates can move plants to cheap labour markets because right wing governments removed the tariffs and duties that used to prevent that kind of thing. There will always be a cheaper place to move your plant, and more often than not the local government will pay for a substantial part of the plant and training.

Remember, I wasn't the one who pulled this thread off topic...

My politics are usually to the right (or further) on economic issues but I am sympathetic to those adults incapable of acquiring more than minimum wage employment. I am familiar with the 'Mincome' experiment Sir O referred to and find it compelling. I've volunteered with United Way Winnipeg for years and hundreds of hours where I've seen the effects/conditions of poverty and many people living in poverty who are not lazy at all but have sh!t really stacked against them in many ways. They are willing to work (and do) but just can't secure higher paying jobs. I don't really care what our teenagers earn working part time and agree with Saf's point about McJobs being stepping stones for most of us. I do however think that we can do better for those adults trying to get ahead but can't get past $10/hour. I don't have the solution but it is a problem worth tackling.

FFS, I think I waste more than $10 per hour.

[dirtyjeffer]

You are suggesting preventing someone from earning a living wage because you personally find the job distasteful and of little value.

that's not at all what i said...i am not going to bother discussing this further for two reasons...one, the thread is derailed enough...two, i am getting tired of defending points i didn't make.