Author Topic: What Ever Happened to Propane Cars?  (Read 13795 times)

Offline Baron von Raschke

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What Ever Happened to Propane Cars?
« on: June 06, 2008, 07:13:13 pm »
I remember in the 80s-90s it was popular to hear about cars running on propane, fleet cars running exclusivley on propane and having their own fill centre, and many having conversions being done on their gasoline powered cars.

With the price of gasoline where it is right now, one would think that propane would be a decent alternative.  Was there a problem with propane that made it lose its appeal?

Offline ovr50

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Re: What Ever Happened to Propane Cars?
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2008, 07:19:40 pm »
I wouldn't want one because:
- the propane tank is very heavy,
- propane is under pressure,
- propane is not as available as gasoline,
- the exhaust stinks, and
- propane is almost the same price as gasoline.

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Offline tpl

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Re: What Ever Happened to Propane Cars?
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2008, 07:52:16 pm »
Toronto taxis are still propane.Many of them anyway.
The most radical revolutionary will become a conservative the day after the revolution.

xviper

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Re: What Ever Happened to Propane Cars?
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2008, 09:17:07 pm »
I don't think propane produced the same amount of power from an internal combustion engine (somewhat less).
Additionally, propane vehicles were not allowed to park in underground or enclosed parkades.  It was generally considered that you should not park it in an attached garage.  They also had restrictions and tight regulations when boarding a ferry.

Offline Baron von Raschke

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Re: What Ever Happened to Propane Cars?
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2008, 01:16:39 am »
I don't think propane produced the same amount of power from an internal combustion engine (somewhat less).
Additionally, propane vehicles were not allowed to park in underground or enclosed parkades.  It was generally considered that you should not park it in an attached garage.  They also had restrictions and tight regulations when boarding a ferry.

I gather that owning a propane vehicle had its risks with respect to exploding unexpectedly :run:?  I guess this would be true of any vehicle with pressurized fuel, such as natural gas?

xviper

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Re: What Ever Happened to Propane Cars?
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2008, 02:15:33 am »
I gather that owning a propane vehicle had its risks with respect to exploding unexpectedly :run:?  I guess this would be true of any vehicle with pressurized fuel, such as natural gas?
Yes and no.  Pressurized fuels have to have better containment than, say, gasoline or diesel.  If you have a vessel of gasoline that isn't sealed properly, you can get fumes from evaporation that can escape by diffusion, convection or atmospheric turbulence.  With a compressed gas, of course, you have escape under pressure when there is a break in the vessel's integrity.  Furthermore, propane in vapour or gas form, is heavier than air, so when it escapes its container, it seeks the lowest elevation.  It flows downhill and pools, where it can't dissipate.  In an enclosed structure, furnaces and utilities tend to be in basements.  Imagine what would happen if a significant amount of propane flowed into a sewer drain and somehow got ignited.  On a ship like a ferry, the lowest parts of the boat is usually the hottest parts.
On the other hand, natural gas (mostly methane) is lighter than air and will fill a room or enclosed structure from top to bottom.

Such things don't necessarily explode "unexpectedly".  Vehicle fuel tanks react in different ways depending on what type of fuel it has.  For example, I've seen vandals attempt to blow up a car by stuffing a rag into a gas filler neck and lighting it.  The rag just burns itself out if it's been stuffed in tightly enough.  If the rag is just loosely placed into the gas filler neck and lit, chances are there will be an instant, finite explosion that the perpetrator might not even escape from.  The initial explosion will like consume all the oxygen in the area of the fuel tank, resulting in no further combustion till more oxygen arrives and another ignition source is found.
Propane tanks are a whole other animal.  Any leak that ignites will make the tank get hotter and hotter and will eventually increase the internal pressures whereby more propane will vent from the relief valve.  That will produce an even bigger flare, resulting in what is called a "bleve" (pronounced "blevy" - boiling liquid expanding vapour explosion).  You have to witness a blevy in order to realize just how spectacular it really is.  Let's just say that if it were a propane powered vehicle, you had better be at least a few hundred yards away when it goes.
Natural gas needs to develope some "concentration" before it explodes.  If you just lit it as it comes out of a container, it would look like a gas stove.  If it builds up in an enclosed environment and then ignited, it will explode with the energy that it contained in what has leaked out.  The stuff still in the container won't necessarily contribute to the overall release of energy.  Though such an explosion has been known to lift a house off its foundation or in severe cases, blow a house to bits, the energy is not quite as far reaching as a propane blevy.  A natural gas powered car that leaks will have a strong explosion when ignited but the outcome won't be nearly as catastrophic as that of a propane vehicle.  Not that I'd want to be near either when they blow, but if I had to choose, I'd pick the natural gas vehicle.  In terms of "unexpected", I would smell the n. gas first as it will rise and have the added smell to help me detect it.  Propane will stay at my feet.

BTW, propane is still used to power things like forklifts that are used indoors.  Propane burns much cleaner so you don't get the same horrible exhaust fumes that a gas or diesel equipment would generate.  Such machinery cannot be stored indoors.  I believe it's against the law in most municipalities.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2008, 02:18:06 am by xviper »

Offline Baron von Raschke

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Re: What Ever Happened to Propane Cars?
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2008, 02:32:32 am »
I gather that owning a propane vehicle had its risks with respect to exploding unexpectedly :run:?  I guess this would be true of any vehicle with pressurized fuel, such as natural gas?
Yes and no.  Pressurized fuels have to have better containment than, say, gasoline or diesel.  If you have a vessel of gasoline that isn't sealed properly, you can get fumes from evaporation that can escape by diffusion, convection or atmospheric turbulence.  With a compressed gas, of course, you have escape under pressure when there is a break in the vessel's integrity.  Furthermore, propane in vapour or gas form, is heavier than air, so when it escapes its container, it seeks the lowest elevation.  It flows downhill and pools, where it can't dissipate.  In an enclosed structure, furnaces and utilities tend to be in basements.  Imagine what would happen if a significant amount of propane flowed into a sewer drain and somehow got ignited.  On a ship like a ferry, the lowest parts of the boat is usually the hottest parts.
On the other hand, natural gas (mostly methane) is lighter than air and will fill a room or enclosed structure from top to bottom.

Such things don't necessarily explode "unexpectedly".  Vehicle fuel tanks react in different ways depending on what type of fuel it has.  For example, I've seen vandals attempt to blow up a car by stuffing a rag into a gas filler neck and lighting it.  The rag just burns itself out if it's been stuffed in tightly enough.  If the rag is just loosely placed into the gas filler neck and lit, chances are there will be an instant, finite explosion that the perpetrator might not even escape from.  The initial explosion will like consume all the oxygen in the area of the fuel tank, resulting in no further combustion till more oxygen arrives and another ignition source is found.
Propane tanks are a whole other animal.  Any leak that ignites will make the tank get hotter and hotter and will eventually increase the internal pressures whereby more propane will vent from the relief valve.  That will produce an even bigger flare, resulting in what is called a "bleve" (pronounced "blevy" - boiling liquid expanding vapour explosion).  You have to witness a blevy in order to realize just how spectacular it really is.  Let's just say that if it were a propane powered vehicle, you had better be at least a few hundred yards away when it goes.
Natural gas needs to develope some "concentration" before it explodes.  If you just lit it as it comes out of a container, it would look like a gas stove.  If it builds up in an enclosed environment and then ignited, it will explode with the energy that it contained in what has leaked out.  The stuff still in the container won't necessarily contribute to the overall release of energy.  Though such an explosion has been known to lift a house off its foundation or in severe cases, blow a house to bits, the energy is not quite as far reaching as a propane blevy.  A natural gas powered car that leaks will have a strong explosion when ignited but the outcome won't be nearly as catastrophic as that of a propane vehicle.  Not that I'd want to be near either when they blow, but if I had to choose, I'd pick the natural gas vehicle.  In terms of "unexpected", I would smell the n. gas first as it will rise and have the added smell to help me detect it.  Propane will stay at my feet.

BTW, propane is still used to power things like forklifts that are used indoors.  Propane burns much cleaner so you don't get the same horrible exhaust fumes that a gas or diesel equipment would generate.  Such machinery cannot be stored indoors.  I believe it's against the law in most municipalities.

Interesting read :)  An explanation worthy of Bill Nye the Science Guy :)

Offline ktm525

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Re: What Ever Happened to Propane Cars?
« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2008, 12:23:30 pm »
IIRC propane was not hit with the usual taxes making it very cheap. essentially it was in a loophole.  Once the taxes were added it lost most of it's competitive advantage over gasoline. Also the more modern injection systems didn't make propane conversions feasible. The old GM TB's were some of the last. The Propane tanks also took up a lot of room which was OK with the big RWD H=GM cars but midsized autos didn't have a lot of cargo room to spare.


unctuous

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Re: What Ever Happened to Propane Cars?
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2008, 09:41:07 am »
In TO lots of cars still use propane.  You can buy conversion kits for Ford 4.6Ls (Crown Vics, Lincoln Town CArs,  one of the Ford trucks) for about 1000-2000.

The engine lats longer but you lose about 15-20% of the power.  If I lived in a rural area I would covert my cars and buy one of those huge tanks for refueling plus heating my house.

barrie1

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Re: What Ever Happened to Propane Cars?
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2008, 08:42:22 pm »
The GM's were the best to convert over as they already came with the Hardened Valve Guide seats in them from the factory which the others did not have. It made quite a difference in how they operated as the extra heat is what wears these engines out. There was a lot of less work and expence in converting the GM engines over because of this factor.  :)

Offline PJungnitsch

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Re: What Ever Happened to Propane Cars?
« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2008, 01:56:30 am »
Interesting read :)  An explanation worthy of Bill Nye the Science Guy :)

:thumbup: :thumbup: Interesting stuff. Googled 'bleve' on youtube, they look like nukes going off.

Tanker truck:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ucs5qrR5X0w&feature=related

Train car (threw it 3/4 mile!):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xf3WKTwHpIU&NR=1


Leviathan

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Re: What Ever Happened to Propane Cars?
« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2008, 04:54:18 am »
Incredible videos! Talk about the earth-shattering KABOOM!

xviper

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Re: What Ever Happened to Propane Cars?
« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2008, 08:41:35 am »
Our fire training academy made a video of such a blevy.  I wasn't there at the time, but I did see the crater it made afterwards.  The guys at "Mythbusters" would have had a woody.   ;)

Offline jcon

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Re: What Ever Happened to Propane Cars?
« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2008, 08:51:41 am »
On the same note...

I used to work at Esso (Main + Terminal - in Vancouver). We sold CNG (Compressed Natural Gas). All the local cabs ran on it, but it took FOREVER to fill them. Starts off strong but as pressure built, it would slow to a crawl. Each night the long line of cabs was sad. If I remember correctly the Vancouver Sun delivery vans also ran on them, though, those guys were being paid by the hour.

I pumped Propane in Vernon. I always questioned how much they were saving in fuel costs?

xviper

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Re: What Ever Happened to Propane Cars?
« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2008, 12:55:40 pm »
Have you ever seen LNG (Liquified Natural Gas)?  It's even more dangerous than propane.
Quite a few taxicab companies went to propane at one point in time.  Makes you kind of wonder where they all went if propane was such a good savings.