Author Topic: Volt = first 100mpg car  (Read 11571 times)

Offline The Mighty Duck

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Re: Volt = first 100mpg car
« Reply #40 on: September 29, 2008, 11:57:11 am »
gold? i think it shows how screwed up gm really is.  instead of moving forward with viable technologies that have shown solid proven results, clean diesels, they push the half baked volt.

You're right!  Why try and develop a new, potentially better technology?  Let's just sit on our laurels and use the same technology until the earth stops spinning.

By your logic, we should all be driving Model Ts powered by leaded gas...  ::)

The advantages diesel enjoys will vanish as soon as it becomes more mainstream, because we lack the refining capacity to keep up with an increasing demand...

Offline EV Dan

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Re: Volt = first 100mpg car
« Reply #41 on: September 29, 2008, 02:24:47 pm »
There is nothing exciting about diesel except maybe algae biodiesel. And even that pollutes environment, produces tons of CO2 (I know modded algae may consume some, not sure at what rate) and requires land for the facilities. Couple that with the study that shows using the same land for solar panels, even current 15% ones is still several times more efficient in terms of energy output. Solar concentrators will do even better. Also algae need "food" that needs to be first produced and then delivered to them; more pollution. Looking at the process overall, it is a much longer way to convert the same sunlight into the car "go". Finally the killer here is the same old, around 20% thermo-mechanical efficiency of the ICE.
Sorry man, I'm afraid you bought the wrong stock  :'(
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Re: Volt = first 100mpg car
« Reply #42 on: September 29, 2008, 03:15:31 pm »
a modern diesel engine has an efficiency approaching 50%... and that's pretty good if you ask me..

of course there's pros and cons with hybrids and diesels..
for a city ppl hybrids make more sense
for a high mileage person a diesel might be a better idea



Offline G35X

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Re: Volt = first 100mpg car
« Reply #43 on: September 29, 2008, 05:34:28 pm »
Although these subjects have been brought out many times in the forums, I would like to repeat:

1) Why we should welcome the advent of plug-in electric vehicles?
Because we can utilize otherwise wasted electrical energy during off-peak hours. Ontario Hydro companies alone must have several gigawatts of surplus during off-peak hours. Nuke and coal-fired plants cannot be shut down easily and they must keep generating. The plug-in EV’s is to utilize this energy for good purpose.  The charging process itself does not increase CO2 and other emissions because the power plants are operating anyway.  Commuters driving EV’s actually reduce the CO2 and other emissions because otherwise they have to drive gas or diesel engine automobiles. (Number of EV’s on the street = number of gas or diesel vehicles not on the street)
Hydro companies should welcome the plug-in EV’s because they can turn the surplus into money even at a reduced rate.   By the way, hydro companies do not want to talk about the surplus during off-peak hours.  They always say “conserve, conserve, conserve”. Conservation is needed only during peak hours. Other times they want you to consume as much electricity as possible.

2) Diesel engines, good or bad?
A – Diesel exhaust is inherently dirtier than the gas exhaust (remnant of stoichiometric combustion).  Because of its very nature of lean burning when load is low, the existence of remaining oxygen in the hot combustion chamber means NOX, which is more difficult and expensive to clean.  When you step on it for quick acceleration diesel engines have tendency of becoming rich burning resulting in remaining hydrocarbon getting separated into carbon particles (diesel particulate) and hydrogen.  Diesel automobiles are now required to have diesel particulate filter.  The accumulated carbon particles are burned off occasionally emitting CO2 into the atmosphere.  Another potential problem of the carbon particles is that with today’s high-pressure common rail injection system the size of particles are very small (nano size) and can pass through the DPF contaminating the air.  We do not know if this nano-size particulate is health hazard or not.  The answer is possibly yes.

B – Diesel is more efficient and consumes less fuel per mile. The reason why diesel engine is more efficient is because of its high-compression ratio (better utilization of thermal energy) and absence of throttle valve found in most gas engines (no pumping loss).  Another reason for good fuel mileage is that diesel fuel is packed with more combustible material per volume, about 15% more than gas.  Because of these two reasons you can get as much as 25 to 30% more mileage per gallon.  If diesel fuel is sold by its energy content or weight, then its advantage over gas will get smaller. 

Offline The Mighty Duck

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Re: Volt = first 100mpg car
« Reply #44 on: September 29, 2008, 07:53:28 pm »
the electric power sector is the largest producer of greenhouse gases right now, with transportation being second.  so i am glad you feel good it won't be coming from your tailpipe but from a plant down the street. if someone could tell us that we could have the capacity to provide the energy required, cleanly, over the grid, and we could produce non toxic batteries, i would say awesome. but the volt's success relies on america, china, and india to make massive shifts in how they are planning to supply energy over through the grid.  do we see that happening in the next 10 years??   the three gorges dam seems to be part of china's answer.  this is one of the largest crimes against the environment ever in history.  how about nuclear?  nuclear energy to me is a very daunting and dangerous alternative.  i don't even want to think of the day we have a chernobyl or a terrorist finally figures out how to bomb a nuclear plant.   maybe eventually when battery technology advances and our grid moves toward safer and cleaner ways of producing energy at that scale, an electric car would be great.  but right now we have clean diesels that substantially reduce co2 output and substantially increase mileage. diesel and biodiesels (microdiesels) imo are the immediate future.   the volt right now should stay an experiment like hydrogen cars have been for years.   

 :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

If you're going to make an argument against hybrid vehicles, at least make it an informed one...

Offline Ex-airbalancer

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Re: Volt = first 100mpg car
« Reply #45 on: September 29, 2008, 09:01:19 pm »
I wonder how hard to turn the Volt drive train to hydrogen ?

Offline G35X

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Re: Volt = first 100mpg car
« Reply #46 on: September 29, 2008, 10:06:48 pm »
what you are suggesting is instead of closing these plants down and using alternative energy sources for our other energy needs… “ – Kevlar

Kevlar, obviously you have not read my earlier posts suggesting that we use the high-capacity Li-ion battery packs such as the one used for the Volt to charge energy during off-peak hours and use the stored energy during peak hours by cutting off our households from the grid.  This process is called peak shaving and if, say one million, households are using this system, we can reduce peak hour electricity consumption by as much as 2GW, enough to be able to decommission two or more nuke or most offending coal-fired plants.  Eventually this household storage system (a kind of UPS) will also be able to capture PV energy from your rooftop making us less dependent on the grid.

As for the coal-fired plants, the latest ones such as the Edmonton Genesee No.3 (495MW), is actually very clean. 

Offline The Mighty Duck

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Re: Volt = first 100mpg car
« Reply #47 on: September 30, 2008, 12:19:57 am »
Quote
no clean diesels are not perfect, but they are a solid step forward in the reduction of co2 and other pollutants from normal gasoline engines and frankly there isn't much of an alternative in the electric car yet since our grid is based dirty technology. 

:banghead:

But that "dirty technology" that provides power is here to stay.  If you expect it to be entirely replaced in the short run, then you need to put down the pipe.  Even if the federal government committed to making the country run on green energy, it would likely take decades to implement.  And I have my doubts Canada's energy needs could be met on wind, solar, and hydro alone.  Realistically, the best alternative to coal fired plants is nuclear power.  Incidentally, you might want to read up on nuclear power: it's a very clean source of electricity, and although Chernobyl was a terrible accident, it is the only one of it's kind, and was the result of poor reactor design and flawed operations.

Anyway: we already have a network of coal-fired power plants.  Yes, they produce pollution.  Lots of it.  But we're not using them to their full capacity, either.  In fact, there's enough power generated to charge plenty of electric cars during off peak hours.  Let's say the amount of pollution caused by these plants is a constant, P.

So, here's what you're suggesting is that these plants go on producing excess electricity.  They continue to produce pollution at level P.  Then you suggest we put diesel engines on the road.  Now they're pretty good, but they still produce pollution.  Let's call that C, a positive constant.  So total pollution under your theory is P + C.

Now, if we take all those clean diesels off the road, and replace them with electric cars, what do we end up with?  Well, we can charge the electric cars using excess power from those coal plants.  That doesn't add to pollution, since it's excess power that would otherwise be wasted.  So P remains constant.  But we get to take all those polluting diesels off the road!  So total pollution is equal to P.

Now, it doesn't take a genius to see that P + C > P.  That's true by definition.

So, given that there's no way Canada is going to switch over to clean energy overnight, electric cars are a better alternative than even clean diesels.

Quote
but what you are suggesting is instead of closing these plants down and using alternative energy sources, we should keep the status quo and keep running the coal plants so we can run electric cars

 ???  This is a total non-sequitur.  There's absolutely no reason why Canadians cannot both drive electric cars and move towards alternative energy sources.  The two are not mutually exclusive.  But in the short term, while we make that transition, we still wind up further ahead by driving electric cars...

Leviathan

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Re: Volt = first 100mpg car
« Reply #48 on: September 30, 2008, 02:31:02 am »
if someone could tell us that we could have the capacity to provide the energy required, cleanly, over the grid,

http://gm-volt.com/2008/09/19/chevy-volt-and-the-electric-grid-drive-15000-miles-for-73/
Quote from: article
Furthermore the electric grid has ample capacity to handle this car. In fact Mr. Duvall stated that 10 million E-REVs will use less than 1% of the US electric grids total capacity.

Quote from: kevlar
and we could produce non toxic batteries,
A123 is a one of two battery makers vying for the Volt contract http://peswiki.com/index.php/PowerPedia:Lithium_Ion_Batteries
Quote from: article
  A123Systems Li Ion Batteries
<snip>
Intrinsic Safety. Unlike conventional Lithium-ion batteries, A123Systems' batteries employ new thermally stable, non-combustible active materials, enabling a safer cell and allowing cost reductions such as the elimination of unnecessary battery pack components. In addition, A123Systems uses an environmentally friendly chemistry.
<snip>

Quote from: kevlar
i would say awesome.
With the grid being OK with Volts on the road and the batteries being non-toxic it looks like you just did.

Leviathan

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Re: Volt = first 100mpg car
« Reply #49 on: September 30, 2008, 03:36:47 am »
Total MPG = 50xM/(M-40) – Leviathan
That 50mpg was given in the early specs of the Volt with 1000cc turbocharged I-3 ICE.  The production model will have a 1400cc NA 1-4 ICE and GM has not made estimated mileage public yet.

Volt chief engineer Andrew Farah has this to say:
http://gm-volt.com/2008/08/22/chevy-volt-still-expected-to-get-50-mpg-in-ice-mode-after-battery-depleted/
Quote from: article
Asked whether the chosen powerplant will change the 50 mpg projection, he said “not significantly”.

Quote from: G35X
From GM's official press release here
"The Volt's electric drive unit delivers the equivalent of 150 horsepower, 273 lb-ft. (370 Nm) of instant torque"
– Leviathan

150HP is about 113KW, which the ICE/generator cannot supply alone.  You need additional juice from the battery pack. But, when the batteries are drained, where do you get the additional energy?  Anyway, that 150HP is available for only a short burst.  Try going up the Coquihalla highway from Hope to Merrit with depleted batteries.

Farah discusses that oft brought up "what if" here:
http://gm-volt.com/2008/09/02/the-pikes-peak-question-chevy-volt-and-the-infinite-hill/

Offline tpl

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Re: Volt = first 100mpg car
« Reply #50 on: September 30, 2008, 06:45:16 am »
That "Pikes peak" article is interesting.   I can see the case for a...lets call it... "wilderness mode" switch that would allow the ICE to be run to fully charge the battery in that rare case, or maybe not so rare in parts of Canada, where you might have plenty of gas available but no ( or not enough)  110/240V for conventional charging.
The most radical revolutionary will become a conservative the day after the revolution.

Offline safristi

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Re: Volt = first 100mpg car
« Reply #51 on: September 30, 2008, 08:56:53 am »
who wants to pay $50 K ,prolly close to the true build cost or Even $40 K(subsidised?) for a 40Km commuter car..........crazy............hell if ya must have it ,put it(the technology)into a $12 K "SMART" type  ultra lite vehicle...and get a 100km out of it for a quarter the cost....have they run this VOLT in the TRUE NORTH strong and free WINTERS yet........?????
« Last Edit: September 30, 2008, 09:01:13 am by safristi »
Time is to stop everything happening at once

Leviathan

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Re: Volt = first 100mpg car
« Reply #52 on: September 30, 2008, 01:17:26 pm »
It's not just a commuter car Saf. Say it lands in your driveway at $40K (your low number) who would buy it? Not me I suppose - at least for another 7 years once I'm done with the Tribute  :) GM is playing percentages. The 40mile AER covers 75%+ of the driving people do, 4 seats covers a lot of buyers too so there is a big pool of potential customers. And then there are the folks that gotta have it regardless of all other factors. The Volt is the first of several cars that will be built on this platform and the cost of the technology come down and it will migrate to other platforms eventually. They had to start somewhere though.

Offline safristi

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Re: Volt = first 100mpg car
« Reply #53 on: September 30, 2008, 01:52:33 pm »
... ::) Ooooh Oooh Levi...U just made MY CASE....U R the TARGET MARKERS err Market fer the Re_VOLT_ing thang...and yet U say NOT inna Million err 7 years!!!! PUTZ yer MOANEY where yer Cerebellum / spinal TAP is........... :stick:..can ya NO pedal a BICYCLE MON..fer 7 Months!!!! :P

Offline G35X

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Re: Volt = first 100mpg car
« Reply #54 on: September 30, 2008, 04:39:54 pm »
Asked whether the chosen powerplant will change the 50 mpg projection, he (Volt chief engineer Andrew Farah) said “not significantly”.

The article also says:
“This engine is expected to get more than 40 mpg when used in a non-hybrid model, such as the upcoming Chevy Cruze”

If so, why don’t they make non-plug-in series electric vehicles with much smaller (lighter and cheaper) buffer battery pack?  You can make it a 50mpg car instead of 40mpg. A 25% improvement in gas mileage is significant already.

As for the Pike’s Peak, I once drove a rental Ford up to the top.  I remember I needed about one hour to cover the 19-mile gravel road with four passengers.  At any rate you do not want to go any faster there.  It is too scary, although racers cover the distance in just about 5 minutes.  Since the amount of oxygen in the air is about 60 to 65% of that of at sea level there, the output power of the NA ICE also gets reduced by that rate.  I question if the Volt can make it in one hour.   FIY, if you want to make it in 5 minutes, you need 1000+ horsepower.

By the way I made a very bad mistake in calculating the required additional power to go up the Coquihalla Hghway.  The Volt should be able to go from Hope to Merrit in one hour at the regulation speed.  Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.  Sorry, fellow members and GM!  My apologies. 

Offline tpl

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Re: Volt = first 100mpg car
« Reply #55 on: September 30, 2008, 05:10:36 pm »
It's not just a commuter car Saf. Say it lands in your driveway at $40K (your low number) who would buy it? Not me I suppose - at least for another 7 years once I'm done with the Tribute  :) GM is playing percentages. The 40mile AER covers 75%+ of the driving people do, 4 seats covers a lot of buyers too so there is a big pool of potential customers. And then there are the folks that gotta have it regardless of all other factors. The Volt is the first of several cars that will be built on this platform and the cost of the technology come down and it will migrate to other platforms eventually. They had to start somewhere though.

I think that Saf's point is ( sort of)  if the ICE motor that powers the generator is so good, why not just have a light car with that motor alone and save the $20k  which pays for a lot of gas.
I agree with him.   The Volt, like the Prius  disobeys the KISS principle. as that ICE has to have all the emission stuff that any regular car has.... its not as if it was just a lawnmower engine driving a generator.     Actually... I wonder if there IS a loophole in the rules about that.?

 A PURE EV does obey that KISS principle but then you don't get any appreciable range.

Offline EV Dan

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Re: Volt = first 100mpg car
« Reply #56 on: September 30, 2008, 06:47:21 pm »
Only a Saf can defeat understand Saf's point. I think by "the technology" he means the electric drive. That was my first concern about Volt. With the Li batt of equal capacity GM could have made a 30kW or so Aveo, sell it for 25 grand and call it a day, waiting for a breakthrough in battery tech. Such car would have a much longer electric range.. but it would be Limited. In NA we dont have the same philosophy with the rest of the world. We need to go far, fast, safe (the size), in comfort and in any weather. If it can tow we call it a deal. KISS it or not, ppl will not buy it otherwise, not for the first or second family car. IMHO GM for once has got it right. They will have very serious competition if Chinese EVs make it here, but who knows, nobody really stops GM from buying a battery plant and start competing on the leveled field.

Offline rrocket

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Re: Volt = first 100mpg car
« Reply #57 on: September 30, 2008, 06:52:37 pm »
Honestly...with the limited numbers of these..along with cost...I don't think it will change the auto landscape at all...

They need to sell these in Prius numbers to make it very successful IMO...
How fast is my 911?  Supras sh*t on on me all the time...in reverse..with blown turbos  :( ...

Leviathan

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Re: Volt = first 100mpg car
« Reply #58 on: September 30, 2008, 09:53:01 pm »
... ::) Ooooh Oooh Levi...U just made MY CASE....U R the TARGET MARKERS err Market fer the Re_VOLT_ing thang...and yet U say NOT inna Million err 7 years!!!! PUTZ yer MOANEY where yer Cerebellum / spinal TAP is........... :stick:..can ya NO pedal a BICYCLE MON..fer 7 Months!!!! :P

Hardly Saf. When I bought the Tribute I intended to keep it for ~10 years. $40K for a car (any car IMO) is steep but without going too in depth it looks like even with the little bit of driving I do I could *almost* cost justify it - at least get it close enough to the point my "gotta have it" side would win  ;)  But I'm not in the market for any vehicle for 7+ years.

What seems to be happening is that the nay-sayers here are wanting a 2nd or 3rd generation mature technology out of a first generation product that is still 2 years away.

Funny you should mention pedaling as I've done ~1,500kms thus far this year with ~800-900 of those commuting to/from work. That is 40+ days and at 2.5L per day I saved ~100L worth of gas/environment. Not a huge amount but I don't ride in the rain  :)
« Last Edit: September 30, 2008, 09:55:09 pm by Leviathan »