Author Topic: Lug damage or any sing of damage??  (Read 3120 times)

edgar millenium

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Lug damage or any sing of damage??
« on: September 23, 2005, 10:05:46 pm »
HI Guys:

First time I see this forum, it have very good info.

I work as a Car Accident Reconstructionist Expert, Right now I am investigating and accident were a tire came of a Daewoo Lanos. I thought that i will going to found any damage on the lugs as it happen in some other motor vehicles, but i couldn't found any so far.

What should I spect to found if the vehicle was driven about 50 miles form the time that the 2 new front tires where installed. Any serious help willbe appreciated.

Sorry for my english, isn't my primary language.

thanks
edgar

Offline ovr50

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Re: Lug damage or any sing of damage??
« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2005, 10:25:41 pm »
Edgar - did the wheel or the tire come off? Are you saying the car was driven 50 miles from the time the 2 front wheels were replaced? How can the wheel come off with zero damage to the lugs or the axle hub? This is confusing - can you explain a bit more please.
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edgar millenium

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Re: Lug damage or any sing of damage??
« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2005, 10:56:24 pm »
HI and Thanks for reply,

The lady that was driven the car (my client) says that she bought 2 tires and where installed in the front. The car wasn't used for the week. Next weekend she dorve back to the city and about 5 minutes from her hous , the tire came off, she lost control of the vehicle and turn over.

I calcualte that she drove about 50 miles from the store where she bought the tires to the moment where she lost the tire. The complete Wheel came off, not the tire alone.

JD

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Re: Lug damage or any sing of damage??
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2005, 11:34:29 pm »
Holy fishy batman!

You're a "Car Accident Reconstructionist Expert", posting on a Canadian forum, yet you have little grasp of english (I'll concede French could be your primary language, but then why aren't you posting on auto123.com)

But you come to a car forum asking for advice on the very subject you preport to be an expert in???  ::)

Anyone else quite disturbed by this?  Any "Car Accident Reconstructionist Expert"  should have a very good idea of what to look for on a car where they suspect that the front lugs way have sheered, or somehow caused a tire loss...

edgar millenium

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Re: Lug damage or any sing of damage??
« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2005, 01:13:00 am »
JD:

Let me explain you something first. That was the best translation I could think of what can be also called "Expert Witness".  I investigate, reconstruct, analyze, make computer calcualtions and simulations, of could happen on an accident. Part of my work is too search for information on what I have little knowledge or can find a good scientific explanation. For your information my primary Language is Spanish, not french, I do know frech, but very little, I can ready most of the words but can't speak it. I just entered this forum, as method of learning additional information based on other experience. Sometimes cars do things nobody can belive they can do.

So...... If you tried to make fun on me, don't waste your time. And let me tell you something. I know that the tire came off, but I didn't found what I expected. That is why I am been spend all night (6 hours right now) looking or more info on this matter.

So like we say here in Puerto Rico

THANKS FOR NOTHING!!!

Offline capriracer

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Re: Lug damage or any sing of damage??
« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2005, 08:18:58 am »
Edgar,

I apologize for JD.  Sometimes we forget that the internet is worldwide and that folks can post form almost anywhere, especially if they have a question they don't have a good answer for.

I'm a engineer with a major tire manufacturer and I analyze failed tires, so I'm probably in the best position to help you. 

Tires that have only be driven 50 miles will show just the barest amounts of wear (for obvious reasons).  When tires are made, they are put in a mold.  To prevent air from being trapped between the tire and the mold (which causes a defect), one method of prevent is to drill small holes through the mold, which in the finished tire look like little bit of hair sticking straight up - let's call these "vents".

Look at the tread surface and you should see the end of the vent - a small round bump.  When a tire is new this vent should have distinct and sharp features, but as the tire wears, the vent will be worn off (becoming merely a round bump) before disappearing altogether. 

So if the tire shows evidence of the vent, then this would be consistent with 50 miles operation.

If the tire does not show this, there may be another explanation.  You didn't say what brand of tire, and there are several different approaches tothe venting problem, so you need to look at other tire of the same brand and type to see what techinque they may be using.

BUT - I think what you are saying is that there are no skid marks on the tires.  This would be inconsistent unless the vehicle didn't slide or the brakes didn't lock up.

And that doesn't sound right (which is what I think JD was trying to say, but he went overboard)

It is still not clear if the tire came of the rim, or the rim came off the vehicle.

I suggest we move this discussion to another medium.  I've sent you a private message, let's use that format.

Would anyone like to know the outcome when we finish the discussion?
CapriRacer

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Offline EV-Light

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Re: Lug damage or any sing of damage??
« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2005, 08:55:33 am »
what a big mix-up....am i losing my english? sorry but i couldnt understand very well what this guy is taking about.

edgar millenium

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Re: Lug damage or any sing of damage??
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2005, 09:12:52 am »
Thanks for your interest and help.  In this case the rim came apart of the vehicle, due to loose nuts. What we are trying to find out if the nuts came loose due to improper torque or any defects on the vehicle. Specially if is posible to install de tires and then after that distance that the nuts came loose.

BTW I just found all the misstakes I did on my previous message.  I hope this explanation can be understood better.

Capriracer:

I sent you 2 PM , please let me know if you received them. I don't undestand this forum very well.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2005, 09:15:05 am by edgar millenium »

Offline wing

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Re: Lug damage or any sing of damage??
« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2005, 10:13:29 am »
Guys, this guy comes for help, says his first language is not english and you make fun of him??  Give the guy a break.  Take the time read the post, or if you aren't interested or do not have an answer DO NOT respond.   ::)

I apologize for some of the people who are posting just to get their count up!

And welcome to the forum

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Re: Lug damage or any sing of damage??
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2005, 10:34:48 am »
Welcome to our diverse forum Edgar.

From what I grasp the whole tire and rim came off the car and the lug nuts were slightly loose.

I suspect the installer got sidetracked and din't finish tightening them. Often they start them by hand and then using the air wrench, finish them off.

There should be some damage either to the rim itself or to the stud that is used to secure the rim, or both.

It's too much of a coincidence that the tires are changed and then one of the rims comes off.

Offline ovr50

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Re: Lug damage or any sing of damage??
« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2005, 11:12:00 am »
"I apologize for some of the people who are posting just to get their count up!"

James - if that quote was referring to my post, I suggest you read my post again as I was only trying to clarify a confusing post (understandable since the poster was a Spanish-speaker). As other posters were still confused, you can see that the initial post was confusing.

Only one poster (JD) was questioning Edgar's post at all, the rest of the posts were to understand. Although JD's post could be considered a bit "rude", let's not fall all over ourselves here - it is still an open, free internet site that will be subject to all kinds of comments.

Offline wing

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Re: Lug damage or any sing of damage??
« Reply #11 on: September 24, 2005, 11:14:25 am »
No the comment was to JD and Multi

edgar millenium

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Re: Lug damage or any sing of damage??
« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2005, 01:24:55 pm »
Wing, OVr50, Inco, and all others that help.

Thank you very much for the welcome. This forum have very good reference info. Accident reconstruction is based on Scientific principles of Physiscs and experience due to testing. Some people doesn't understand this. I found this forum while searching and found a topic with some of the info I am looking, but was very short.

Any other info or links to reference will be appreciated.

Thanks
Edgar

morty

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Re: Lug damage or any sing of damage??
« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2005, 07:56:46 pm »
I think this would be difficult to prove. I agree with Inco,  if the vehicle was driven for substantial distance with the lugnuts loose, there should be damage on the threads of the studs. This would be caused by the wheel moving back and forth and rubbing on the threads. Or, since there was a substantial period from the time they were installed perhaps someone attempted to steal the new tires, but were interrupted. They may have left the lugnuts loose and the vehicle owner not realizing drove the vehicle. Perhaps....

Did the driver not notice the shaking of the vehicle? If so, why didnt they pull over to inspect? As drivers, we need to be a little more aware. It is also our responsibility to be certain the vehicle is in good working order. If we stop to check....wheel doesnt fall off...all is good.



edgar millenium

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Re: Lug damage or any sing of damage??
« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2005, 09:43:29 pm »
Morty:

Thanks for the info. I forgot to mention something very important, the driver was a 16 years old girl. She said that she didn't noticed anything wrong. BTW, I have my concern and think you have a good point of what you stated regarding somebody tried to steal and didn't finish. This accident was very close to her house, she leave in the interior part of the island, where roads have a lot of curves, that will make a lot of stress on the lugs on every curve, specially if it is loose.

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Re: Lug damage or any sing of damage??
« Reply #15 on: September 25, 2005, 07:02:33 am »
I've replied to your private message.