Topic: W300 IceBear Help

[crolly]

I bought a set of winters for my X3 from Morty (TT) last spring during their clearance event and had them installed yesterday (Saturday) at a local tireshop (Nantucket Tires and Mags).  I didn't do my homework and just went along with word-of-mouth recommendations.  They had no Road-Force balancer for one.  Just the regular spinner type.

Here's the problem.  At 80kph, my steering wheel vibrates a lot!  I let go of the wheel slightly to see how it's behaving.  There is "free-play" happening with the wheel.  Rough estimate, the wheel turns 3 degrees left and 3 degrees right at a rate of 5 cycles per second.  Upping the speed to 90-100 range, the free-play reduced to about half, although cycles per second is the same.  Did 120-140, there's a slight change but it's still there.

I'm very disappointed.  My ride no longer feels tight.  My stock tires (Pirelli Scorpions) performed really well my steering wheel is dead-stable at any speed.  I'm blaming myself for not going to the BMW dealership instead and have them do it.  I thought about supporting my local tireshop for a change and here's what I got. Their rates are high even.  Dang!  I feel I've been had 

My questions are:

• Is it worth it to go back to them and ask them to fix it? Knowing that they don't have the proper equipment, I feel the chances of them getting it right is slim.
• Or is it a waste of time?  Should I go to a BMW dealer instead?, (that has RoadForce)
• Or could it be the tires?

HELP!!!  I welcome any suggestions too.

Edit: I forgot to mention that I did some digging in the archives prior to posting for problems similar to this.  The closest I found recommended to have it re-balanced at a shop that has roadforce.

[vz64]

You should bring back your car for balance - the vibration at 120-140 is a clear sign that your tires are not properly balanced. Also, some balancing machines as not as precise as some others (Morty might add  specifics here). I had a similar problem with my summer PS2, but after a second visit (for free) to the same shop cured the problem. W300 are decent tires and I am sure it is a balancing issue that gives you vibration.

[crolly]

Thanks for your insight VZ!

I went back to the local shop and gave them another shot at it.  To my surprise, the technicians at the shop don't look familiar.  The guys who worked on the X3 last Saturday are probably off-duty today.

It was a blessing in disguise.  They removed the wheels again and removed all the weights.  This time it was Rick who handled the balancing.  Prior to removing the existing weights, he first removed the stones trapped between the tread blocks and ran the balancer.  All the wheels were "off-balanced"... WTF!  Anyway, aside from that, he noticed that 2 of the tires have wobbly surfaces.  The "hump" point on the tread surface were located exactly where the rubber joins... (that part where the 2 edges of the tread rubber meet and cured together).  The 2 wobbly tires are the ones installed in front too, and combined with off-balanced wheels, that also contributed to the wiggles.

Rick said that no tires are perfect and humps like that are normal and would go away after driving it a little while (to let the rubber wear down to equalize the roundness).  He moved the pair of wobbly ones to the rear and balanced all of them carefully.  He advised me that the vibrations might still be felt even if the bad tires are on the rear due to suspension vibrations crawling from the rear to the front, esp. for BMW's finely tuned suspensions, however he expected it to be minimal. If vibrations were not going away still, I may have to talk to TireTrends about getting replacements, he said. 

After all that, I drove the X3 at various speeds along the 401... up and down from 80-130.  It's practically gone.  He was right and I do feel very minimal vibrations at 120 due to the rear tires, but hopefully this would heal itself.

On a different topic, I compared the level of "expertise" between the guys who worked on the X3 last Saturday and today.  Holy $$$$ batman!... the former guys were inexperienced newbies!!!  The guys who worked today were more professional and coordinated.  They also handled my alloys gently.  The other guys were banging it on the mounting machine... and my poor alloys are now full of scratches.  Anyway, it's all history.  I'm moving on and will never allow Dave to handle my business at Nuntucket.  For the others who wish to visit this shop, just look for Rick, he is the EXPERT around there.  Don't settle for anyone else.

Just sharing my experience... so that future posters with this problem may refer to this solution, if applicable.

[froggy]

Hi Driver,

Glad your problem is fixed!
I am thinking of getting the same tires for the RAV4 and I wanted to know what you think of them (Obviously, limited experience right now...), like: Are they noisy? 
I'll get them with Steel rims so the nice people of TT can balance them for me... 

[oversteer]

Since I have recommended Nantucket in the past I feel really bad that you had a bad experience.  Sorry to hear it and I'm glad it worked out in the end, although there's really no excuse for them scratching up your wheels.  If I recommend them now, I'll have to add that I've now heard of someone having a bad experience there.  Isn't it amazing how much a business should pay attention to taking care of the customer. 

Just curious, why so early in the season to put the winter tires on?

[crolly]

Froggy, this is my 2nd set of IceBears.  1st set was for the Impreza Outback Sport, H rated 205/55/16 used last winter.  My overall rating is great bang for the buck!  I drive pure city with ocassional highway during weekends.
 

• I remember pushing the Impreza around the corners (dry cold pavement) and the tires hold firm and not letting go.
• I've tested them on pure flat shiny ice as well (in my apartment parking lot), straight line, 5-10 degree incline and cornering and they still provide ample grip. It still slipped a little during the test but the Subaru's AWD managed the traction part for me. It won't be as grippy as studded ones though, or as grippy as Blizzaks under ice rink conditions.
• Also had the opportunity to test them one night with heavy freezing rain on a 20 degree incline (private road).  I approached the incline leisurely and managed to get through without a fuss.  The civic behind on all-seasons managed half the way through by momentum and lost traction and slid down slowly back to the bottom of the crest.
• Lastly, had the chance to test them on 3-4 inches of fresh powder and I was slipping and sliding in a partly empty Crappy Tire parking lot, albeit under control.  After a while I might have pushed it too hard and exceeded it's limits as I was direclty headed for a parked car.  Stepped on the brakes and the tires found traction and that was a close call but the tires did it's job.  Kids, don't try this at home

I'm expecting the same performance on this new set of IceBears.  I got a V-rated this time, size 235/55/17.  With regard to noise, they do hum a little.  If your stock OEM tires are relatively quiet on the highway, imagine upping the volume (and frequency) by 50%, that's my rough estimate... sounds like someone is humming softly outside


Oversteer, no worries.  I'm happy it all worked out in the end too.  You're absolutely right about businesses paying attention to taking care of their customers.  I was fortunate that this time I dealt with Rick. Lou and Rick were actually very apologetic about what happened and was thankful that I went back to them to remedy the situation, instead of me going someplace else and them not having an opportunity to redeem themselves.

If somebody asks me if I would still recommend Nantucket, I would say yes. However, I will ask them to deal with Rick alone, not Dave.  If the shop insists otherwise, then leave.

I had the winters installed early since they are brand new and needs breaking-in (between 1000-2000 kms).  Because of my short daily commute, my monthly accumulated kms is only 800-1000 kms.  So I'm giving myself 2 months to break it in before the first snow falls.  A bonus to this is I'm ahead of the winter rush.  Nantucket business was a bit slow 2 times I went there.  Before me and after me, there was no other customer in line.

[morty]

Balance is definitely important, as no tire is perfect. The explanation about the joints in the tire is inaccurate. The line you see across the tire is from the sectional mold used to push the tread pattern into the tire. It leaves a little thin line where the 2 sections meet. Every tire starts life as a smoothy. They then put the tire into a mold and this mold pushes the tread pattern into the tire. The excess rubber needs somewhere to go, so there are vents in the mold to evacuate the extra rubber. This leaves little bits of rubber we call nipples. Some companies shave them other leave them. Once complete the tire companies paint coloured lines on the tire to indicate size and tread pattern. These lines are often crooked and can give the optical illusion the tire isnt round. Every tire has run-out and this is normal.

Our experience on the W300 has been very good. We find the run-out to be exceptional when compared to the many other brands we sell. If you continue to have troubles you can always give us a call.

Another factor to consider is that you are driving on snow tires and they will handle a lot different than your stock tires. Rubber is softer and moves more. You may be experiencing the snow tire effect. You cannot drive winter tires the same as stock summers. We had a customer who bought some winters from us for his GS430. He came back complaining that his car was all over the road. We were perplexed until we went for a drive with him. He was driving like a crazy man and expected that the tires should handle the same as his summers. Explanation time...winters are not summers, please adjust your driving accordingly.

[crolly]

Hey Mort.  Thanks for dropping by and clarifying that issue with the joints.  It's clear to me now.  I was surprised about the explanation as well and maybe I misunderstood him.  Lucky for us your here to steer us to the right direction.

Another factor to consider is that you are driving on snow tires and they will handle a lot different than your stock tires. Rubber is softer and moves more. You may be experiencing the snow tire effect. You cannot drive winter tires the same as stock summers.

I'll keep this in mind.  It's so easy to get carried away sometimes esp on an open highway.  Even though my IceBears are V-rated, they're still winter boots and needs special treatment. 

I'm tempted to try and run them through next summer and see how the V-rated IceBears would wear down.  Could it be a good alternative to the Nokian WR?... only time will tell I guess.

[morty]

No worries. A lot of misinformation on the tire manufacturing process.

We have run the W300's through the summer and also have had reports of others doing the same. Wear was very good. Will they be exactly the same as the WR...hard to tell. I think they offer better winter performance with very good wear. Factor in the price difference and the W300 is a good option.