Topic: Winter Test: 2015 Hyundai Genesis and Santa Fe XL

[Autos_Editor]

In winter, everything is a calculated risk.
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[Noto]

It all came down to four pieces of rubber and a bad guess.

Great article - but I'm not so sure I agree that it was the tire choice.  Even in crappy, snowy conditions, my Michelin X-Ice Xi2s (known to be sh!t in deep stuff) aren't THAT bad.  I would say this has more to do with the Genesis's ability to get tail happy by virtue of an insufficiently-complex AWD system that is rear-biased.

Quattro and xDrive, both of which rear-biased, have a lot of ECU complexity to properly manage slippage.  I would wager that's more of the issue here than the tires used.

...then again, the article doesn't really say 'what' the issue was with the Genesis.

[SaskSpecV]

"Hyundai decided to put a tire on the Genesis testers tuned more toward ice performance"

So what was the tire on the Genesis?  Did I miss it somewhere it the article, or are we not wanting to off the tire companies now?

OTOH, it's refreshing to read an AWD review that thoroughly acknowledges the paramount importance of the tire choice.

[Noto]

OTOH, it's refreshing to read an AWD review that thoroughly acknowledges the paramount importance of the tire choice.

^^ This is true, but I would also stress that the Genesis itself may have been the culprit.  The tires were still winter tires and should not have produced a result that Mr. Stevenson is unwilling to discuss.

I would wager that the Genesis, a 3.8 (by virtue of the tail pipe design) uses 18" tires (OEM size 245/45R18 96 W)

There are not many tires that fit that size; KalTire only has 5 such examples:
Falken Eurowinter HS449
Pirelli Winter Sottozero 3
Yokohama W.Drive
Continental ContiWinterContact™ TS 830
Pirelli Winter 240 Sottozero/Serie II

Canadian Tire also includes:
Dunlop Winter Sport M3
Dunlop SP Winter Sport 3D
Hankook Winter I*Cept evo

Based on this picture:


I would wager that the winter tires so-equipped were the Pirelli Winter Sottozero 3


If that is correct, the Sottozero is not a dedicated ice-tire, but rather, it is a performance winter tire (i.e. a winter tire that 'performs' well on dry pavement).

I am therefore crying foul on the lines:

Hyundai decided to put a tire on the Genesis testers tuned more toward ice performance and, as is inevitable in these sorts of situations, it snowed a blizzard the day of our drive.
...
The Santa Fe XL, with its less involved front-biased system, performed much better in the conditions. The Genesis, with a much more complex and advanced system featuring the ability to send split power fore and aft in many ratios, performed much worse.

It all came down to four pieces of rubber and a bad guess.

I think that's one way to specify that the Genesis may have some bugs to work out in its AWD management software, but even the worst winter tire cannot be THAT bad in the winter so that a writer cannot comment on the winter driving test.

Sorry, Mark.  I applaud you for trying to be nice to Hyundai about it, but it sounds like an excuse to me.  The article is well-written, and very much enjoyable, but I simply cannot accept the conclusion.

[carcrazed]

^ Excellent detective work.

[Patrick_D1]

Sorry Noto, but that's incorrect. The tire mounted was the Continental TS830. It's definitely a performance-oriented tire which substitutes deep-snow performance for dry-road stability. Nothing more aggressive (or suited to deep snow) was available to us within the ordering window.

Regarding the Genesis' AWD system, take my comments as you will given who I work for, but our HTRAC system is every bit as advanced as BMW's xDrive system. Our transfer case even comes from the same supplier. In my experience with the Genesis in snowy conditions (including driving these exact units), the system performs remarkably well. The transfer case is controlled by an electronically-controlled hydraulic clutch and can transfer power almost instantly from front-to-rear. Even in Sport mode when the vehicle defaults to 80-90% rear bias, I barely need to apply steering correction for slides as the system immediately moves torque forward. Just keep your foot in it and go.

I wasn't there and I'm sure Mark can speak further to the traction issues, but before criticizing the functionality of the HTRAC system, I'd encourage you to try a Genesis for yourself.

[sacrat]

It's a little depressing to realize that after converting the public to the virtues of winter tires, the issue arises of this or that type not performing adequately in some conditions. My brother fitted ice biased tires to his wife's 2012 Santa Fe since we see much more ice than deep snow in Calgary (constant temperature swings). Drive three hours north to Edmonton and they're up to their a$$es in snow. As a side note, my son has brand new winters on his Genesis Coupe (RWD), and it's still virtually undrivable in winter conditions. He'll be selling it to some sucker (um...interested buyer) in the spring.

[mixmanmash]

Sorry Noto, but that's incorrect. The tire mounted was the Continental TS830. It's definitely a performance-oriented tire which substitutes deep-snow performance for dry-road stability. Nothing more aggressive (or suited to deep snow) was available to us within the ordering window.

Regarding the Genesis' AWD system, take my comments as you will given who I work for, but our HTRAC system is every bit as advanced as BMW's xDrive system. Our transfer case even comes from the same supplier. In my experience with the Genesis in snowy conditions (including driving these exact units), the system performs remarkably well. The transfer case is controlled by an electronically-controlled hydraulic clutch and can transfer power almost instantly from front-to-rear. Even in Sport mode when the vehicle defaults to 80-90% rear bias, I barely need to apply steering correction for slides as the system immediately moves torque forward. Just keep your foot in it and go.

I wasn't there and I'm sure Mark can speak further to the traction issues, but before criticizing the functionality of the HTRAC system, I'd encourage you to try a Genesis for yourself.

I agree with this.  I have used "Performance" Winter tires in the past.  They are ok on dry pavement and very light soft powdery snow.  But they are not great for deep snow.

[Noto]

Sorry Noto, but that's incorrect. The tire mounted was the Continental TS830.

I was close!  It was on my list

Continental doesn't market it as a dedicated ice tire, though:

ContiWinterContact TS830 P Performance Winter / Snow tires were developed by Continental Tire to combine good snow traction and ride comfort with European high-speed capability. Continental ContiWinterContact TS830 P tires are for the drivers of sport coupes and luxury sedans who require winter driving traction on dry, wet and snow-covered roads.

The ContiWinterContact TS830 P winter / snow tire features an asymmetric tread design with broad, rounded outboard shoulder blocks to enhance dry road handling. These are combined with independent inboard tread blocks separated by wide circumferential grooves to enhance snow traction, wet road traction and hydroplaning resistance. The tread design features high-density sipes to provide the biting edges to help grip snow and ice and enhance winter traction without resorting to traditional metal studs.

...and Force, don't take my comments as an attack or negative towards Hyundai - if the Genesis is as good as Quattro or xDrive, both of which have been in constant development for decades, and this HTRAC is 'relatively' new, I'd be very impressed!  Mark hasn't specified how the Genesis did handle - he could have said "I felt confident and got through everything just fine, but better tires would be better."  Instead, he said "I can't judge because these tires weren't great for the conditions."  I am having trouble with THAT answer, and WONDER if HTRAC maybe has some more development to go (as I would expect for any new product!).

I try to make all of my comments constructive and honest.  I don't attack people personally (for the most part - SirO just asks for it ), and I try to set aside my own personal bias.

I have never been one to slam Hyundai's products as anything other than great value and surprisingly good reliability from a relative new-comer.  I want that to come across here.

I also am quite fond of Mark - very much so!  I just like to say my bit

[Noto]

I agree with this.  I have used "Performance" Winter tires in the past.  They are ok on dry pavement and very light soft powdery snow.  But they are not great for deep snow.

...and I agree with this as well - but then why can't Mark comment on how the Genesis fared with that 'hindrance'?  Was it THAT bad?  Could Blizzaks have made THAT much of a difference?  Were the Contis worse than the OEMs?

I think Mark's conclusions just don't fit.

[Patrick_D1]

I try to make all of my comments constructive and honest.  I don't attack people personally (for the most part - SirO just asks for it ), and I try to set aside my own personal bias.

I have never been one to slam Hyundai's products as anything other than great value and surprisingly good reliability from a relative new-comer.  I want that to come across here.

I also am quite fond of Mark - very much so!  I just like to say my bit

Don't worry, no negative perception of your comments on my end, either! Just sharing my viewpoint (in as unbiased a way as I can!) based on fairly extensive experience with the car. 

I'm sure Mark will chime in and clarify his views eventually.

[Jaeger]

Sorry Noto, but that's incorrect. The tire mounted was the Continental TS830. It's definitely a performance-oriented tire which substitutes deep-snow performance for dry-road stability. Nothing more aggressive (or suited to deep snow) was available to us within the ordering window.

Regarding the Genesis' AWD system, take my comments as you will given who I work for, but our HTRAC system is every bit as advanced as BMW's xDrive system. Our transfer case even comes from the same supplier. In my experience with the Genesis in snowy conditions (including driving these exact units), the system performs remarkably well. The transfer case is controlled by an electronically-controlled hydraulic clutch and can transfer power almost instantly from front-to-rear. Even in Sport mode when the vehicle defaults to 80-90% rear bias, I barely need to apply steering correction for slides as the system immediately moves torque forward. Just keep your foot in it and go.

I wasn't there and I'm sure Mark can speak further to the traction issues, but before criticizing the functionality of the HTRAC system, I'd encourage you to try a Genesis for yourself.

Well said in every respect.  Web detectives are overrated.

[Noto]

...soooo, Force, when are you inviting me to test a Genesis on snows in La Belle Provence ?

[Ex-airbalancer]

Sorry Noto, but that's incorrect. The tire mounted was the Continental TS830. It's definitely a performance-oriented tire which substitutes deep-snow performance for dry-road stability. Nothing more aggressive (or suited to deep snow) was available to us within the ordering window.

Regarding the Genesis' AWD system, take my comments as you will given who I work for, but our HTRAC system is every bit as advanced as BMW's xDrive system. Our transfer case even comes from the same supplier. In my experience with the Genesis in snowy conditions (including driving these exact units), the system performs remarkably well. The transfer case is controlled by an electronically-controlled hydraulic clutch and can transfer power almost instantly from front-to-rear. Even in Sport mode when the vehicle defaults to 80-90% rear bias, I barely need to apply steering correction for slides as the system immediately moves torque forward. Just keep your foot in it and go.

I wasn't there and I'm sure Mark can speak further to the traction issues, but before criticizing the functionality of the HTRAC system, I'd encourage you to try a Genesis for yourself.

When is Genesis getting a CUV ?

[MarkStevenson]

So I'm just reading this now. It's been a busy day.

NoTo -- I'll try to address your concerns...

"I would say this has more to do with the Genesis's ability to get tail happy by virtue of an insufficiently-complex AWD system that is rear-biased."

There was oversteer. There was understeer. There was lateral sliding while driving down a straight, off-camber road. There were a lot of things going on that, cumulatively, can only be explained by a lack of traction/grip due to tires. (Our car also had a very close call. If I was at the wheel, I would have written about the near-miss explicitly. But, due to professional courtesy to the driver -- not Hyundai -- I didn't mentioned it in detail.)

I've driven the Genesis before in the summer. Force is going to kill me for this but I'll say it anyway -- even with all the nannies off it's very, very hard to get it out of shape, no matter how hard you try to get it out of shape. So, at least in summer (dry and wet), the all-wheel drive system is great.

Weather

In the morning, which was when I drove the Genesis, we got the worst of the storm. Our closed course testing was an absolute disaster. The pictures don't do it justice. There were points when the front of the Genesis was a snowplow. When I was taking photos, the snow was half way up to my knees in places.

The afternoon, when I drove the Santa Fe, was much calmer and the snow on the road was mostly packed down.

He could have said "I felt confident and got through everything just fine, but better tires would be better."

Yes, I could have lied. I could have said any number of things that are complete and utter to make me sound like I'm some kind of driving hero and no amount of weather is above me.

But, I explained the way I did because I truly don't know what to think of the HTRAC system. The conditions and tires conspired against the test. It happens. It sucks. I wish I could have said more.

I will tell you one thing though -- there were times I was actually scared. I don't mean scared to put a car in a snowbank, but scared that if Hyundai can get the tire choice wrong, so could any number of other people out there for any kind of car. If there's one lesson I took away from the test it's tire choice is of the utmost importance and really region specific. Those tires would have been totally fine around the well-plowed streets of Toronto. But, in rural Quebec as 5-10 cm of snow per hour is falling from the sky and there's not a plow in sight (even if you could see through the blizzard), the Continentals were definitely not the answer.

[SaskSpecV]

But, in rural Quebec as 5-10 cm of snow per hour is falling from the sky and there's not a plow in sight (even if you could see through the blizzard), the Continentals were definitely not the answer.

Thanks for responding Mark.  Obviously the tire choice is hugely important, but in my opinion, you've just mentioned the big elephant in the room.  When there is no visibility, it doesn't matter - you shouldn't be on the roads.  Obviously this was different for you - on a closed course, with no public traffic I assume?  So you couldn't cause any damage, other than to the vehicle?  But when you can't see the car ahead of you, or behind you, or in the oncoming lane that has now drifted into your lane (because they can't see where they are going either) - no vehicular aid is enough.

Best winter tires available, AWD, radar-cruise control or collision avoidance systems - none of them are the answer in white-out conditions. Just have to stay off the roads in those conditions until you can see where you are going.

[Fobroader]

Still think that Genesis is a fantastic looking car.....if I was going to blow ~$60k on a luxury sedan for long distance driving, hell yeah. This seems like Hyundai Canada sticking some very crap tires on the car, any issues that I read about was all tire related to me.

[MarkStevenson]

Some idiot chose these tires because no other models were available... That guy really sucks. Oh, wait...

I heard a different story.

[Patrick_D1]

A performance-oriented ice/dry pavement winter tire was the strategy chosen - it clearly didn't work out. We may have had slightly better luck with another model like the Dunlop Wintersport, but who knows.

This was a learning experience for all involved. Frankly, I've experienced the same with my own car. Just as the Continentals are better on ice and dry pavement than deep snow, so are the tires on my car. Living in the GTA I had figured this was a good compromise, but my tires' poor performance in deep snow and even worse traction in slush (especially relative to the Graspics on my wife's car) have changed my view.

Next year I'm leaning Dunlop Wintermaxx for my personal car.

[dirtyjeffer]

i find Blizzaks to be very good here (London)...i would imagine the GTA area to be similar (likely even a little less snow).