Author Topic: Steering You Right: Bicycle mayhem  (Read 7874 times)

Offline Autos_Editor

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Steering You Right: Bicycle mayhem
« on: August 22, 2011, 04:03:10 am »

Offline quadzilla

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Re: Steering You Right: Bicycle mayhem
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2011, 06:53:21 am »
Quote
While riding on a bicycle path on the right hand side of the road he crossed an intersection on a green light and was hit by a car turning right!

By the sounds of this, the bike path was part of the road so there must have been a dividing line separating the car lane and bike lane.

Quote
The car driver was turning right at the green light just as he was supposed to do as well. It never occurred to him that a bicycle would ride up on his right hand side through his blind spot while he was making the turn.

Since the author doesn't explain in more detail here (pretty much like all the articles) we would need to know what kind of dividing line is between the car and bike lane when at the corner, solid or dotted. If dotted, the car should move over to the curb lane once clear or if solid, the car must check for any bike traffic before proceeding.

Quote
In fact the driver was only vaguely aware that there was a bicycle lane on his right. He knew enough not to drive in it but really could not properly check for bicycle traffic behind and to the right of him.

OK, this is just garbage. Vaguely aware but knew enough to not drive in it? What the hell does that mean? Is that like saying he was vaguely aware there was a sidewalk beside the road but knew enough no to drive on it? Shouldn't people check for pedestrians/bikes when turning? 

Unless the traffic was all stopped, wouldn't the car have to pass the bike before turning right? If so, how did he not see them?

Offline quadzilla

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Re: Steering You Right: Bicycle mayhem
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2011, 06:57:35 am »
why would you ride your bike past a car signaling and turning right?   that is just plain ignorant.  you don't see motorcycles doing that, so why is it ok for a cyclist riding at 25-30kph?  i have even had people ride around my car on the right in the middle of a turn!! as the article itself states, follow the rules of the road. 

Actually I see motorcycles lane splitting all the time and some days using the bike lane to get past backed up traffic. So yes, I do see it happening.

Maybe the car passed the bike then turned right in front of them. I have this happen about 5 times a week.

Also, as in my post the type of bike lane dividing line needs to be described here as it is what makes the difference.

Offline jamesautos

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Re: Steering You Right: Bicycle mayhem
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2011, 07:59:24 am »
maybe bicyclists should behave like cars on the road...more so if you ride one of those noninsured E-bike or moped

maybe have a license system?
wait behind a car that is turning; never lane split; have proper lights; protect your lane and only keep right to let faster vehicle to pass

Offline D70

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Re: Steering You Right: Bicycle mayhem
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2011, 08:42:41 am »
why would you ride your bike past a car signaling and turning right?   that is just plain ignorant.  you don't see motorcycles doing that, so why is it ok for a cyclist riding at 25-30kph?  i have even had people ride around my car on the right in the middle of a turn!! as the article itself states, follow the rules of the road. 

As a cyclist who rode to work , and a motorcyclist I agree with these comments. Riding into a right hand turning car shows the cyclist not being aware of his situation and being able to read the traffic around him a very important aspect of surviving when riding on 2 wheels. I'm still convinced that riding a motorcycle is safer than riding a bicycle just because you can keep up with traffic and as I used to do ride in my own space i.e accelerate ahead of traffic so no one is near you. Last rode my bike 2 days ago, dodging texting or MP3 listening  pedestrians is the biggest hazard on our bike paths while the walk ways go unused!

Offline JohnM

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Re: Steering You Right: Bicycle mayhem
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2011, 09:45:24 am »
I'm all in favour of increased bike usage and bike lanes etc, but we have to be aware of what is happening in traffic and not just rely on what we may believe, correctly or incorrectly, is our right of way.

I can't imagine driving into a car that has signaled a right turn.  It is exactly the kind of thing you have to be looking for.

But bike lanes make the road system more complex and it will take time to get used to this.

I almost walked in front of a streetcar if you can believe it in Berlin.  There were 4 car lanes, 2 bicycle lanes and two streetcar lanes at this intersection and the streetcars could turn both left and right.  I walked out in front of in front of a streetcar turning left.  I wasn't ready for it and the traffic signals looked like a video game.  So mistakes are easy as the traffic system changes and gets more complex.

We will all have to adapt and look around more.  Nothing amazes me more than people who simply step off the curb when the light changes without looking around.  There will be fewer and fewer of them as the road system becomes more complex.

Cheers,
John M.


Offline quadzilla

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Re: Steering You Right: Bicycle mayhem
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2011, 10:19:42 am »
I can't imagine driving into a car that has signaled a right turn.

Did I miss the part where they said the driver did signal their turn? Like most of these articles, it is missing a lot of facts.

I ride to work pretty much every day and the number of cars/trucks/buses that DO NOT signal turns is very high.

Offline aaronk

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Re: Steering You Right: Bicycle mayhem
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2011, 11:12:44 am »
I can't imagine driving into a car that has signaled a right turn.

Did I miss the part where they said the driver did signal their turn? Like most of these articles, it is missing a lot of facts.

I ride to work pretty much every day and the number of cars/trucks/buses that DO NOT signal turns is very high.

I was just thinking this - readers are passing judgement pretty decisively for not having a complete understanding of the variables at play. If a right turning vehicle does so without a signal (very common) then how would a cyclist know to stop? I suppose being prepared is the best defense here - ride like the driver IS going to turn and be ready to react. Regardless, having a separate bike lane to the right of a traffic lane is inevitably going to create problems, that's the point here.

Offline Spec5

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Re: Steering You Right: Bicycle mayhem
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2011, 01:04:18 pm »
We will all have to adapt and look around more.  Nothing amazes me more than people who simply step off the curb when the light changes without looking around.  There will be fewer and fewer of them as the road system becomes more complex.

I too am absolutely blown away by this. Crossing the road in parking lots is another good one - they don't even look - just "assume" that you see them and walk around as though they're surrounded by an invisible shield that will protect them from people chatting on the phone, texting or playing with iPods getting that perfect song on that will get them all the chicks when they drive slowly through the mall parking lot with the system cranked.

As for the article - once again - likely a non-issue if the cyclist was driving on the sidewalk. If the sidewalk is busy slow down. The road is no place for a 30lbs bike with a person on it when its roamed by 3000+lbs monsters with zombies driving them.
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Offline aaronk

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Re: Steering You Right: Bicycle mayhem
« Reply #9 on: August 22, 2011, 01:39:15 pm »
... when its roamed by 3000+lbs monsters with zombies driving them.

lol  ;D

Offline Great_Big_Abyss

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Re: Steering You Right: Bicycle mayhem
« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2011, 03:44:54 pm »
But it's illegal to ride a bike on a sidewalk.  Police are cracking down hard on sidewalk riders.  And apparently the road is no place for a cyclist either.  Where on earth are we to go?  Oh I know.  Cities could dig tunnels beneath the road especially for cyclists.  Then the phrase 'go to h3ll' really would apply.

Offline X-Traction

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Re: Steering You Right: Bicycle mayhem
« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2011, 06:35:28 pm »
But it's illegal to ride a bike on a sidewalk. 

In this case, it was pretty clear the cyclist was on a bike path.  The bike path may or may not have been on a sidewalk, but if it's designated as a bike path, they obviously have the right to be there.
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Offline X-Traction

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Re: Steering You Right: Bicycle mayhem
« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2011, 06:48:09 pm »
All bicycling advocates with more than half a brain warned about exactly this problem whenever bicycle lanes were put forward as a "solution" in North America.

Personally, I both drive and cycle in urban and rural settings.  Unless I'm in a situation where there couldn't possibly be a cyclist on my right, such as an expressway exit, I habitually check on the right before turning right to see if there's anything there.  As a cyclist, I think checking for motorists making turns at intersections that could endanger me, is just part of what you have to do to survive.

Having said that, while cycling I've had two accidents with motorists suddenly turning right in front of me to enter driveways.  The only logical conclusion is that motorists have to smarten up and take note of the presence of cycists, since in both cases the motorists passed me immediately before they initiated their turns.  Unlike what a couple of posters said, the situation can be such that the cyclist just does not have time to avoid a collision -- even if the cyclist is aware of and watching out for exactly this situation.  Insurance company examinations of these incidents agreed the motorists were the at-fault parties. 

(Naturally the police refused to lay any charges.  Typically they won't even consider ticketing a motorist unless there is an injury-producing accident, and they define there is no qualifying injury unless an ambulance attends.  Even if they attend the scene and there are witnesses.  Therefore close calls, which are more dangerous to cyclists than fender benders are to motorists, receive utterly no consideration from the police.)

If while cycling I have to do a panic stop at an intersection to avoid being struck by a motorist, I will go after them and if I catch them, such as at the next light or in a parking lot, engage them in an "educational discussion".  I will even wait for them the next day at the same time and place.  I do this because the police have proven that cyclists basically have to take the law into their own hands.

I noticed D70's comment about pedestrians on bike paths.  Around Vancouver, it is typical for the bike lanes to be crowded with pedestrians, while the adjacent sidewalk is empty!  I don't agree with this, but can see why people do this since in some places the bike lane is wider and paved, while the walking path is narrower and perhaps unpaved.  I often wonder if these pedestrians are exactly the same folks who, as motorists, object to cyclists being in their way.  Probably.

Shesh, we have such an overwhelming need for education about how to share the roads.  Go to Denmark or Holland to see how it should be done.

And while I'm ranting, I'll repeat a point I've made before.  You can build all the cycling infrastructure you want, and cyclists won't feel and be safe until they have the full respect of motorists.  And they won't have that respect until ALL motorist/cyclist accidents are deemed to be the fault of the motorists.  When word gets out that motorists are being really nailed for colliding with cyclists, motorists will start taking better note of the presence of cyclists, and keep their distance.  Only this will correct the imbalance between the weight the respective parties are throwing around.  But it requires the buy-in of the police, who so far typically represent the interests of motorists.

Offline mmret

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Re: Steering You Right: Bicycle mayhem
« Reply #13 on: August 22, 2011, 10:09:45 pm »
And they won't have that respect until ALL motorist/cyclist accidents are deemed to be the fault of the motorists.  When word gets out that motorists are being really nailed for colliding with cyclists, motorists will start taking better note of the presence of cyclists, and keep their distance.  Only this will correct the imbalance between the weight the respective parties are throwing around.  But it requires the buy-in of the police, who so far typically represent the interests of motorists.

...so your solution is that the cyclists are always right?
You can't just have your characters announce how they feel.
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Re: Steering You Right: Bicycle mayhem
« Reply #14 on: August 23, 2011, 01:38:12 am »
On the way home after work in Fredericton, I used to ride down Prospect street. It's a very steep, and fairly long hill with a 50km/h speed limit. I'd regularly hit 60km/hr, about the speed of traffic, maybe faster. Every once in a while someone would speed up to pass, then pull a right right in front of me. That was about my biggest peeve riding around Freddy.

I had a favourable tailwind and hit 70 km/h one day. Cop car coming up the hill flashed his lights and gave me the slow down signal. If I had gotten a ticket, it would have been framed and put in my office! ;D
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Offline X-Traction

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Re: Steering You Right: Bicycle mayhem
« Reply #15 on: August 23, 2011, 02:49:31 am »
And they won't have that respect until ALL motorist/cyclist accidents are deemed to be the fault of the motorists.  When word gets out that motorists are being really nailed for colliding with cyclists, motorists will start taking better note of the presence of cyclists, and keep their distance.  Only this will correct the imbalance between the weight the respective parties are throwing around.  But it requires the buy-in of the police, who so far typically represent the interests of motorists.

...so your solution is that the cyclists are always right?

No, don't read into it things I didn't say.

The principle is that outside the subject of who screwed up, motorists have far more potential to harm cyclists than vice versa.  There already is a traffic law that motorists must avoid collisions if they can reasonably do so, even if they are an innocent party.  Tying these together means that if a motorist collides with a cyclist under almost any circumstances, the motorist is held responsible.  The motorists are expected to foresee that cyclists may do something the motorist does not expect.  In the case of some European countries, the motorist is held responsible for any collision involving a child or senior cyclist.  In practice, this means that North American motorists would have to be vastly more careful around cyclists than they are now.

Now you may be one of the many motorists who will protest that cyclists are always breaking the laws so why should motorists be responsible for the resulting accidents.  Was I right about that?

My response is that an objective analysis of the situation reveals that in fact, motorists far more commonly violate the laws of the road than do cyclists, and this is compounded by the fact the motorists are the ones throwing more dangerous weight around.  Note that North American cyclists commonly curtail their cycling because they're afraid of motorists, while pedestrians and motorists don't curtail walking or driving because they're afraid of cyclists.  It's pretty obvious who needs to be reined in.

Offline aaronk

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Re: Steering You Right: Bicycle mayhem
« Reply #16 on: August 23, 2011, 11:09:45 am »
I think the solution to all of this is that bicycles should be decorated with strobe lights and sirens at all times. They should also have confetti cannons that can be fired in the event of a really intense situation where motorists continue to ignore the existence of these two-wheeled road users.

On a serious note, we in the GTA (and Ontario in general) are just way behind when it comes to understanding the relationships between bikes and cars. There is a negative atmosphere that is being left unaddressed, which is bad for both driver and cyclist alike. Looking at many European cities, even certain cities in the United States (Portland, Oregon for example) or the west coast of Canada (Vancouver, Calgary), they have as much as 10% bicycle traffic with accident rates no higher than our 1% bicycle traffic. Once a community 'embraces' the idea of cycling, motorists become more aware that they exist and there is literally a culture change in the way that city or region views transit. Cycling becomes safer, and because of that more people choose the option. Speaking of Portland, they currently have 8% of all trips on bicycle but are implementing plans to bring that number to 25%.

I think the city needs to organize more 'ride days' or 'bike to work days' and publicize the events, get people with bikes on the roads and make it safe and fun. We give free cars to people who quit smoking, why can't we have some incentives for taking a few cars off the road? Maybe a few dozen new mountain bikes?

« Last Edit: August 23, 2011, 11:22:47 am by aaronk »

Offline Spec5

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Re: Steering You Right: Bicycle mayhem
« Reply #17 on: August 23, 2011, 12:23:15 pm »
I think the solution to all of this is that bicycles should be decorated with strobe lights and sirens at all times. They should also have confetti cannons that can be fired in the event of a really intense situation where motorists continue to ignore the existence of these two-wheeled road users.

On a serious note, we in the GTA (and Ontario in general) are just way behind when it comes to understanding the relationships between bikes and cars. There is a negative atmosphere that is being left unaddressed, which is bad for both driver and cyclist alike. Looking at many European cities, even certain cities in the United States (Portland, Oregon for example) or the west coast of Canada (Vancouver, Calgary), they have as much as 10% bicycle traffic with accident rates no higher than our 1% bicycle traffic. Once a community 'embraces' the idea of cycling, motorists become more aware that they exist and there is literally a culture change in the way that city or region views transit. Cycling becomes safer, and because of that more people choose the option. Speaking of Portland, they currently have 8% of all trips on bicycle but are implementing plans to bring that number to 25%.

I think the city needs to organize more 'ride days' or 'bike to work days' and publicize the events, get people with bikes on the roads and make it safe and fun. We give free cars to people who quit smoking, why can't we have some incentives for taking a few cars off the road? Maybe a few dozen new mountain bikes?



Amen to that!

Offline X-Traction

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Re: Steering You Right: Bicycle mayhem
« Reply #18 on: August 23, 2011, 07:15:34 pm »
No, don't read into it things I didn't say.

The principle is that outside the subject of who screwed up, motorists have far more potential to harm cyclists than vice versa.  There already is a traffic law that motorists must avoid collisions if they can reasonably do so, even if they are an innocent party.  Tying these together means that if a motorist collides with a cyclist under almost any circumstances, the motorist is held responsible.  The motorists are expected to foresee that cyclists may do something the motorist does not expect.  In the case of some European countries, the motorist is held responsible for any collision involving a child or senior cyclist.  In practice, this means that North American motorists would have to be vastly more careful around cyclists than they are now.

Now you may be one of the many motorists who will protest that cyclists are always breaking the laws so why should motorists be responsible for the resulting accidents.  Was I right about that?

My response is that an objective analysis of the situation reveals that in fact, motorists far more commonly violate the laws of the road than do cyclists, and this is compounded by the fact the motorists are the ones throwing more dangerous weight around.  Note that North American cyclists commonly curtail their cycling because they're afraid of motorists, while pedestrians and motorists don't curtail walking or driving because they're afraid of cyclists.  It's pretty obvious who needs to be reined in.

What a stupid post.  You are, of course, entitled to an opinion and to share it, but that does not make it "objective analysis", as you say. 
So you claim my post is very stupid, but cite only one objection to it.  Nothing like proving your point, which is the gist of your criticism of my post.

Virtually all motorists, when not stuck in traffic, continuously break the speed limits.  They don't signal as required for turns, don't negotiate intersections as required by law, park illegally whenever they get a chance, pull U-turns, fail to merge properly, bully and endanger each other. The list could go on.

You could point out what cyclists do to violate the traffic laws, but there's no way cyclists' violations are as common and pose as much hazard as the violations of motorists.

If you were more objective, this would be obvious to you also.

Offline rrocket

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Re: Steering You Right: Bicycle mayhem
« Reply #19 on: August 23, 2011, 09:23:44 pm »


Virtually all motorists, when not stuck in traffic, continuously break the speed limits.  They don't signal as required for turns, don't negotiate intersections as required by law, park illegally whenever they get a chance, pull U-turns, fail to merge properly, bully and endanger each other. The list could go on.

You could point out what cyclists do to violate the traffic laws, but there's no way cyclists' violations are as common and pose as much hazard as the violations of motorists.


Shrugs.  I see cyclists violating more traffic laws than autos every time I go to TO. 
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